Qantas - Refurbs on 767 and 747

[Sprucegoose]

Not if you're paying for J.

*grumbles*

No say paying red e deal in row 3 or 4.

Flew to Perth in J once and was asked to upcline so pax behind could eat. Not impressive then.

 

[Sprucegoose]

This is one 23 year old I don't want to get into!

You probably already have if you are well travelled.

 

[ajw373]

Well wasn't it also that all the a330s went to Jetstar and that the A380 order was downsized in the case of the 747s.

It's hard because now it's obvious Qantas cant afford them, but was it the case that by not replacing the fleet they are now paying in terms of lost business? It's complicated.

That's becuase the 737s are worse. 767s are the best of the bad bunch. They are still operating 737-400s ffs

You seem to be forgetting the 20 or so A330's that came and stayed with Qantas.


As for not being able to afford new a/c don't think so. You will find the decision to cancel would be related to delay compo from Boeing. Also remember that options were brought forward to fill some of their previously firm slots. So really it is probably a one year deferral rather than out and out cancellation.

 

[oliverd]

I really don't care... I care about the seating configuration, but not the aircraft age. A refurbed 747 vs 380 makes little difference to me - a little less noise in the 380 cabin, but more pax disembarking which can make it a slower process for the back of J or anywhere in Y...

My only bugbear is when I'm in J or PE and there's no power to the seat - happens to me once every second flight in QF regardless of aircraft type...

 

[Sprucegoose]

I really don't care... I care about the seating configuration, but not the aircraft age. A refurbed 747 vs 380 makes little difference to me - a little less noise in the 380 cabin, but more pax disembarking which can make it a slower process for the back of J or anywhere in Y...

My only bugbear is when I'm in J or PE and there's no power to the seat - happens to me once every second flight in QF regardless of aircraft type...

Can they reset that power? Have you asked?

 

[oliverd]

Can they reset that power? Have you asked?

Yep. I always ask, as I get lots of work done on a long flight with no interruptions. Often they can re-set - but the last time (on a QF A380 in PE) they admitted defeat, and asked the passenger in the seat behind if I could run my notebook lead under my seat and into their power socket...

 

[QFflyermelbourne]

Auskiwiflyer two points here:

On the 767s the investment was not desired but has been deemed necessary because of the heat from Virgin. Qantas has quite clearly stated they will all be gone by 2014 so not at all the five years you mention. Really the investment is not that large - the ipads are by far the biggest cost and they will be transferrable to other aircraft if they are still going (I'd be betting into the VX and VY 800s). Further to this a number of the late OG series are from the late 1990's and are only at the midpoint of their life.

On the 747s you are age figures are totally wrong. They are only upgrading 9 aircraft: VH-OJS-OJU which were built in 99/00 and have easily a decades work left. And the 6 400ERs VH-OEF-OEJ which are only from 02/03 so have 13 years or so left in them. Qantas has said all the other OJ series birds from 89-92 will be gone by the end of next year. Whether that actually happens I am yet to believe...

 

[nlagalle]

You don't need to look at the rego - the 767's super old school overhead bins and yellowing plastics everywhere shows it pretty clearly. Oh let's not forget the old school RGB bulb projectors for the main central video screens - I hope they remove those in the refurb!

As i said.. re-furb the interior and you'll have no idea of the age unless you track the rego..

And the LCD screen stay but there wasn't an O/H projector on my last re-furbed 767 flight

 

[nlagalle]

Well wasn't it also that all the a330s went to Jetstar and that the A380 order was downsized in the case of the 747s.

It's hard because now it's obvious Qantas cant afford them, but was it the case that by not replacing the fleet they are now paying in terms of lost business? It's complicated.

Not all A330's went to JQ, QF still has many in their fleet.

QF has a pretty good cash reserve and could afford it, but there are waiting lists for aircraft.. so no short term solutions!

That's becuase the 737s are worse. 767s are the best of the bad bunch. They are still operating 737-400s ffs

you obviously don't know the QF fleet very well. There is only 10 737-400's left which are being retired as we speak and nearly 60 737-800's

 

[Berlin]

As much as I enjoy flying QF, those old old planes are the reasons I'm sometimes not all that faithful to the flying roo. I fully agree with the OP that those lame refurbs are nothing compared to new aircraft and delaying some of the A380 as well as canceling the dreamliners have been an absolute disgrace for QF in my eyes. Putting new seats into a 747 doesn't change the air pressure or noise to the beauty that an A380 is, period.

And let's not even talk about those rusty 767s or 737-400, that's just ridiculous. And I also disagree with the notion that the average flyers can't tell- the age of a plane is much easier to tell than the experience of the pilots or mechanics keeping it in shape which is not at QF's advantage unfortunately!

 

[markis10]

Auskiwiflyer two points here:

On the 767s the investment was not desired but has been deemed necessary because of the heat from Virgin. Qantas has quite clearly stated they will all be gone by 2014 so not at all the five years you mention.

Its actually mid 2015, not 2014.

our fleet of A330s will grow until the eventual retirement of all domestic B767s by mid-2015

About Qantas - Media Room - Media Releases - Qantas accelerates refresh of B767 fleet

 

[harvyk]

And let's not even talk about those rusty 767s or 737-400, that's just ridiculous. And I also disagree with the notion that the average flyers can't tell- the age of a plane is much easier to tell than the experience of the pilots or mechanics keeping it in shape which is not at QF's advantage unfortunately!

If you can take a photo of some rust in a QF 767 or 734 which has structural implications on an aircraft you are about to fly on, I'll buy you a drink at the next AFF gathering that we both attend... Hell I'd almost be willing to extend that to rust full stop...

Yes some of the old QF birds are looking tired (BTW flown with AA lately?) but I am pretty sure they are not rust buckets, otherwise they would not be leaving the ground.

As for the age of the plane, how can you tell? The coat of paint? The interior plastic discolouring? All these are things which simply show how long since the plane was last painted and / or the cabin was refreshed, not the age of the airframe...

 

[straitman]

An interesting discussion with some weird perspectives from where I'm sitting.

I challenge anyone (without 'very good' aircraft knowledge) to pick a new aircraft from one that has been fully refurbished. Even the comments about A380 versus B747 noise levels don't really do it. Given a thorough refurbishment the 744 could be as quiet as a 380. Without even looking I'm quite sure the 747-8 is as quiet as the A380. The 744 was a step forward from the previous 743s etc.

I travelled in a DJ 737-700 on Monday and I'm quite sure that most people would not know it was a refurbished aircraft rather than a new one.

 

[Berlin]

If you can take a photo of some rust in a QF 767 or 734 which has structural implications on an aircraft you are about to fly on, I'll buy you a drink at the next AFF gathering that we both attend... Hell I'd almost be willing to extend that to rust full stop...

Yea, I didn't mean the rust part literally. Let's agree on worn and tired looking- works for me as well. And AA? Well, it that is what QF compares itself to, then goodbye quality airline. Me as a customer would prefer sparkling-new aircraft like the new A380 or the never-appearing 787s, that's just at the core of it.

 

[ajw373]

Yea, I didn't mean the rust part literally. Let's agree on worn and tired looking- works for me as well. And AA? Well, it that is what QF compares itself to, then goodbye quality airline. Me as a customer would prefer sparkling-new aircraft like the new A380 or the never-appearing 787s, that's just at the core of it.

There are very few airlines in the world that have an exclusive fleet of brand spanking new aircraft flying the skies. I mean to say even 'quality' airlines like Emirates and Singapore have older aircraft. But for you comment I guess you want these brand spaking new a/c, but you don't want the fares to rise to pay for them. Am I right?

 

[mannej]

Yea, I didn't mean the rust part literally. Let's agree on worn and tired looking- works for me as well. And AA? Well, it that is what QF compares itself to, then goodbye quality airline. Me as a customer would prefer sparkling-new aircraft like the new A380 or the never-appearing 787s, that's just at the core of it.

Well if you are after the 787 you have a very limited choice currently...

 

[markis10]

I mean to say even 'quality' airlines like Emirates and Singapore have older aircraft. But for you comment I guess you want these brand spaking new a/c, but you don't want the fares to rise to pay for them. Am I right?

Fleet age is not always a big contributor to air fares, for instance Garuda is way below QF at 6.6 years versus QF at 10.6, in fact a younger fleet contributes to a lower airfare due to Opex being a much bigger component than Capex on the balance sheet.

 

[ajw373]

Fleet age is not always a big contributor to air fares, for instance Garuda is way below QF at 6.6 years versus QF at 10.6, in fact a younger fleet contributes to a lower airfare due to Opex being a much bigger component than Capex on the balance sheet.

It is a balance actually.

 

[markis10]

It is a balance actually.

Cannot see too much balance in the expenditure:





A 748i operates at around 20% less opex than a 744, that would easily cover the capex let alone the cost if leased I suspect.

 

[simongr]

Not sure that I understand that. Based on the above aircraft operating costs are fuel and aircraft variable - a total of 7,200. 20% of that is 1,440 - compared to depreciation of 1,384. Admittedly some of the depreciation would not be aircraft related but there isn't a huge difference.