Qantas Project Sunrise goes ahead, 12 new A350-1000s ordered

[elanshin]

Which QF international/long haul flights are currently constrained by the curfew? Like what isn't being flown now that would be flown if the curfew wasn't there?

More likely JQi than QFi things. Qantas Group means both.

Early morning landings are currently underutilised. Why would QF be lobbying for more of something they hardly use or have limited ability

Any PREMIUM flight. Have you taken a flight that landed after 6 vs before 6? SYD arrival goes from a breeze to absolute chaos mayhem once all the flights start landing in. Like QF2 that lands before 6 vs QF292.

 

[torks]

More likely JQi than QFi things. Qantas Group means both.


Any PREMIUM flight. Have you taken a flight that landed after 6 vs before 6? SYD arrival goes from a breeze to absolute chaos mayhem once all the flights start landing in. Like QF2 that lands before 6 vs QF292.

I'm pretty sure there is only 3 flights which utilise the shoulder period for only 6 months of the year (Northern Summer). These being QF2, the British Airways flight from London & a Singapore Airlines flight.

 

[justinbrett]

I'm pretty sure there is only 3 flights which utilise the shoulder period for only 6 months of the year (Northern Summer). These being QF2, the British Airways flight from London & a Singapore Airlines flight.

All three from SIN and could leave an hour later. They wouldn’t be happy but wouldn’t be a deal breaker if they had to spend an extra hour in SIN.

Landing over the bay is not a huge issue for noise. Sending them around because they’re too early for the end of curfew is!

 

[evanb]

Currently they need to use early morning "shoulder" flexibility to allow aircraft including QF2 to land earlier than 6am. These flights often arrive earlier than scheduled.

By "extend" I mean make landing possible between 5am and 6am. So, not more flights but more ability to land earlier than the official curfew end. As mentioned here:

Yes, QF2 during the NS summer season, but not during the NW season. That's the only one for QF and it's been doing that for years. It's a somewhat moot point for PS since that would mean leaving LHR several hours later and getting blocked by LHR's curfew.

I interpreted your point as that QF would want more, which they don't need/want. Apologies for that. You're correct that the shoulder ends once WSI opens, but this was to my earlier point that they're not slots and QF don't have any historic claim to this. It's purely allowed by ministerial discretion.

However, it's limited by the original legislation and not current policy. It's lost in the same way as the overnight cargo movements are since the original legislation allowed overnight exemptions at the Ministers discretion as long as there wasn't an alternative. Once there is an alternative it all goes.

They're not lobbying hard for more, but have been discussing it with government on how to best deal with it since it predates current events. It's not just QF for that matter but also affects BA and SQ. In the case of BA, their indication to government is that they'd stop serving Australia if there were no solution.

 

[evanb]

More likely JQi than QFi things. Qantas Group means both.


Any PREMIUM flight. Have you taken a flight that landed after 6 vs before 6? SYD arrival goes from a breeze to absolute chaos mayhem once all the flights start landing in. Like QF2 that lands before 6 vs QF292.

Which JQ flight then? Their current earliest arrival during NS is ICN at 9am. JQ run on tight turnarounds, so return arrival to SYD is dictated by keeping turnaround at destination short, thus ultimately dictating original SYD departure times.

Currently, SYD departure to ICN is 10:45am. So having that flight arrive before 6am would mean outbound departing before 7:45am which is simply not feasible for a number of reasons but most prominently network connections at SYD.

So back to the original point, other than existing QF2 which is dictated by LHR slots (literally the legal instrument notes that it's due to slot coordination at countervailing airports), which flights would they want? They could do more already which they don't.

 

[evanb]

All three from SIN and could leave an hour later. They wouldn’t be happy but wouldn’t be a deal breaker if they had to spend an extra hour in SIN.

Landing over the bay is not a huge issue for noise. Sending them around because they’re too early for the end of curfew is!

I agree that the extra hour wouldn't be make or break, but the airlines will tell you they will. BA supposedly threatened to drop the route (which they probably won't). Unlike QF, they have sufficient slot fungibility to shirt their LHR departure later to 10:15pm to time arrival at 6am. But it didn't stop them making up things about it would undermine their European and domestic feed by increasing connecting times, blah blah blah.

 

[jase05]

However, it's limited by the original legislation and not current policy. It's lost in the same way as the overnight cargo movements are since the original legislation allowed overnight exemptions at the Ministers discretion as long as there wasn't an alternative. Once there is an alternative it all goes.

SYD is a massive fly in our ointment.
The sooner WSI opens the better

 

[SYD]

SYD is a massive fly in our ointment.
The sooner WSI opens the better

Not much use nor particularly relevant for PS flights.

 

[dajop]

The talk of early arrivals is really not that relevant to sunrise unless Qantas decides to operate completely different schedules during summer vs winter.

Due to LHR constraints assuming a take off of 10:30pm at the latest during Australian summer landing time would be around 5:30am but during winter it would be 3:30am, clearly not possible or desirable.

 

[RooFlyer]

It will be interesting to see how all this plays out - it could be a little messy for passengers for a while.

I’ve always thought that Airlines will use pricing to make the transport discomfort of WSI a bit more palatable.

 

[dajop]

the lack of a curfew will eventually be attractive, after all WSI CEO knows QF International very well

No doubt it will be, particularly for late evening departures. But I can’t see it being attractive for flagship routes such as sunrise that are targeting the premium market. WSI-LHR has probably as much chance of happening as SYD-LGW.

 

[evanb]

It's always been a bugbear of mine how the narrative had evolved around slots and the curfew. Neither are a critical constraint for long haul flights. They're far more of a constraint for short haul flights. Since WSI is really attempting to affect the slot and curfew constraint, it's natural that it's big benefit will be to short haul.

Yes, it'll get some long haul and international flights, but they will have unique characteristics, firstly where the catchment may be advantageous and secondly for airlines which already have schedule redundancy at SYD, and the interplay between the two. So it's reasonable to expect SQ and NZ to hit up WSI since adding another frequency to SYD doesn't give them any network improvement while WSI does. But QF shifting a single route over doesn't help them.

 

[justinbrett]

I agree that the extra hour wouldn't be make or break, but the airlines will tell you they will. BA supposedly threatened to drop the route (which they probably won't). Unlike QF, they have sufficient slot fungibility to shirt their LHR departure later to 10:15pm to time arrival at 6am. But it didn't stop them making up things about it would undermine their European and domestic feed by increasing connecting times, blah blah blah.

It’ll be interesting to see what happens when the QR/BA/IB JV comes up for renewal, in context of the QR/VA partnership.

I wonder if there’s any chance, if blocked, they’d move to MH or CX.

 

[Himeno]

It isn't just the early morning long hual arrivals that QF may want to change when WSI opens. There may be some current evening departures that leave before QF may want, but are stuck with the start of the curfew period. Such as Tokyo and maybe some North American routes.

 

[Aeryn]

Doubt premium heavy flights like Sunrise will ever operate out of WSI unless an emergency diversion. WSI will primarily be for freight and LCCs with a few token full service flights thrown in mostly on dometic and short haul routes.

QF1/2 and Sunrise will definitely remain at SYD where there if a F lounge, established transport and closer proximity to city and customer base who pay for J/F.

QF have published no plans for a F lounge at WSI so wont send any of their metal with F there (no A380s or A350s)

 

[justinbrett]

It isn't just the early morning long hual arrivals that QF may want to change when WSI opens. There may be some current evening departures that leave before QF may want, but are stuck with the start of the curfew period. Such as Tokyo and maybe some North American routes.

What North American route would fit this?

A departure after 2200 means west coast arrival after 1900 for half the year, slightly earlier for the other half. With lack of connections I can't see this being attractive or useful for anything except aircraft utilisation, but these routes have a lot of premium pax.

DFW/ORD would be even worse, they'd arrive after 2200 local in the US.

I personally can't see any longhaul QFi moving to WSI in the next 20 years. I think you'd be lucky to get WSI-AKL.