Qantas-NZ deal rejected

[Kiwi Flyer]

Co-ordinating airfares is price fixing and would more than likely stop sale fares.

Not necessarily - look at the domestic NZ market (main routes shared by QF and NZ). Fares and sales are closely matched and yes still sales occur.

Certain booking classes not being eligible for points earning is based on the currect practice of Air NZ and QF with the JQ model.

I don't think they will undo recent changes to points earning. But that is independent of any agreement, not a part of it and thus irrelevant.

I still contend that you are being inconsistent.

 

[NM]

Come on,how can NZ say they are fly the equivalent of 43 empty A320 daily? Does NZ have that capacity in their entire fleet? or is it poor reporting?

By my quick reckoning, NZ has around 3600 seats per day across the ditch. It varies slightly by day, but generally something like 2 x 744, 5 x 763 and 11 x A320. Some of these are not daily and some days a 772 subs a 763 etc. This is just NZ and does not include Freedom.

So I can only assume the quoted figure for empty seats (43 x A320s is about 6500 seats) must be the total for all carriers. But the quote in the media seemed to imply it was NZ only. Someone is being a little liberal with the numbers.

 

[JohnK]

But that is independent of any agreement, not a part of it and thus irrelevant.

Yes irrelevant to the agreement between QF and Air NZ but very relevant to our discussion right here. After you asked me, I posted 4 reasons on how I would accept a codeshare arrangement. Only one of these reasons belonged to the original proposal which was co-ordinating routes, the rest were just my dumb naive thoughts.

 

[Altair]

By my quick reckoning, NZ has around 3600 seats per day across the ditch. It varies slightly by day, but generally something like 2 x 744, 5 x 763 and 11 x A320. Some of these are not daily and some days a 772 subs a 763 etc. This is just NZ and does not include Freedom.

So I can only assume the quoted figure for empty seats (43 x A320s is about 6500 seats) must be the total for all carriers. But the quote in the media seemed to imply it was NZ only. Someone is being a little liberal with the numbers.

I agree that someone is being a little liberal with the numbers, and it is not just the media that is doing it.
For one thing out of WLG it is not possible to have a full aircraft due to weight restrictions on the current length runway, so you will that will account for some of the 43 A320. But I still do not accept NZ argument that they need the codeshare to remain profitable. It is their decision to fly the widebody aircraft (empty?) arcross the Tasman, they have the narrowbodies to maintain frequency and get a higher efficency but they choose not to do it. QF with the withdrawal of the A330-200 to JQ should be using the 767 not to AKL but to the domestic operations ro the international operations that have been downgraded to 737, while using the 737 (400 & 800) to AKL. Surely this would make better sense and the aging 767 is not that much more comfortable than the 737. Yes kind of contradictory but it addresses some of the arguments for the code-share.
But I will admit a major reason for the 767 across the ditch is not passenger capacity but it is freight, which NZ lost marketshare, to EK, since deciding to fly the A320 instead, look at their annual reports.

 

[garyjohn951]

Much of the scheduling Aus-NZ flights has to do with saving money, not what suits the PAX flying.
example. Mel-Wel is QF37 which arrives 23.59. Why, because the flight crew are NZ hired, at cheaper rate and also can sleep in their own beds.

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

Much of the scheduling Aus-NZ flights has to do with saving money, not what suits the PAX flying.
example. Mel-Wel is QF37 which arrives 23.59. Why, because the flight crew are NZ hired, at cheaper rate and also can sleep in their own beds.

Actually the schedules suit NZ-based travellers (especially business travellers) quite well in that it is possible to do a day trip across the tasman and reasonable amount of time for work there.

Due to the time zones, curfews etc, it would never be possible to make the schedule work as well for australian-based business traveller.

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

By my quick reckoning, NZ has around 3600 seats per day across the ditch. It varies slightly by day, but generally something like 2 x 744, 5 x 763 and 11 x A320. Some of these are not daily and some days a 772 subs a 763 etc. This is just NZ and does not include Freedom.

So I can only assume the quoted figure for empty seats (43 x A320s is about 6500 seats) must be the total for all carriers. But the quote in the media seemed to imply it was NZ only. Someone is being a little liberal with the numbers.

Agree 6500 is ridiculous, by 18 flights a day sounds low.

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

I have a vague recollection the original quote was all airlines for a week (not QF+NZ for a day), but I could be misremembering.

Anyway here is the current NZ schedule (and ignoring Norfolk Island, Noumea flights).

AKL-CNS vv 3 @ 320 / week
AKL-BNE vv 4 @ 744 and 7@ A320 / week
AKL-SYD vv 12 @ 763 and 13 @ A320 / week
AKL-MEL vv 7 @ 744 and 7 @ A320 / week
AKL-ADL vv 3 @ A320 / week
AKL-PER vv 7 @ 763 / week
WLG-BNE vv 2 @ A320 / week
WLG-SYD vv 13 @ A320 / week
WLG-MEL vv 4 @ A320 / week
CHC-BNE vv 6 @ A320 / week
CHC-SYD vv 14 @ A320 / week
CHC-MEL vv 10 @ A320 / week

AKL-OOL vv 6 @ A320 / week
HLZ-BNE vv 3 @ A320 / week
HLZ-OOL vv 2 @ A320 / week
HLZ-SYD vv 3 @ A320 / week
HLZ-MEL vv 2 @ A320 / week
PMR-BNE vv 4 @ A320 / week
PMR-SYD vv 2 @ A320 / week
PMR-MEL vv 2 @ A320 / week
WLG-OOL vv 2 @ A320 / week
CHC-OOL vv 3 @ A320 / week
DUD-BNE vv 3 @ A320 / week
DUD-OOL vv 0 @ A320 / week
DUD-SYD vv 3 @ A320 / week
DUD-MEL vv 2 @ A320 / week

Total 11 @ 744 / week
Total 19 @ 763 / week
Total 82 @ A320 / week NZ
Total 37 @ A320 / week SJ
Total 149 / week or about 21 per day.

18 a day about right excluding SJ.

 

[Altair]

Actually the schedules suit NZ-based travellers (especially business travellers) quite well in that it is possible to do a day trip across the tasman and reasonable amount of time for work there.

Due to the time zones, curfews etc, it would never be possible to make the schedule work as well for australian-based business traveller.

I totally agree that the schedules suit NZ based travellers :mrgreen: and air crews. QF could not change their non-AKL schedules if they use Jetconnect 737 crews, which are paid the same or cheaper than Jetstar crews, unless they want them to overnight in OZ.
The current schedule allows me to have to a full day, 6:00 am flight to OZ and 6:00 pm flight return, of course I am shattered the next day....

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

The current schedule allows me to have to a full day, 6:00 am flight to OZ and 6:00 pm flight return, of course I am shattered the next day....

Yes pretty hard to get up the next day at 5am after a long day before trip to Oz (up at 3:30 am and don't get back until 1:30 am or even later if flight delayed or customs decides they need to check me out again).

Fortunately day trips across the tasman not too often.

 

[garyjohn951]

I am pleased to hear that the schedules suit NZ businessmen, but then I suppose we aussie's should help support the NZ economy with the extra night's accommodation etc we are forced to pay. Our little bid to help the NZ peso.

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

I am pleased to hear that the schedules suit NZ businessmen

somehow I don't think a schedule to allow aussie businesspeople to do a full day's work in NZ would work too well

2 or 2:30 am departure (oops curfew) to arrive at the start of the day, then evening flight back (this already exists)

 

[NM]

Total 11 @ 744 / week
Total 19 @ 763 / week
Total 82 @ A320 / week NZ
Total 37 @ A320 / week SJ
Total 149 / week or about 21 per day.

Thanks for the list. There were some I had missed. So that would be a total of 26,857 seats per week, or an average of just under 3900 seats per day for NZ/SJ. So a bit hard for NZ/SJ to be flying 6500 empty seats trans-Tasman daily! But lets not let mathematics and logic get in the way of a good story.

I read the Air NZ response to the ACCC ruling as it was posted to the ASX site (under the Qantas stock listing) and it certainly implied it was NZ flights. The wording was something like this: "we fly the equivalent of 43 empty A320 aircraft across the Tasman each day". I certainly read the "we" to refer to Air NZ, but it is possible he was referring to the collective "we" of QF/NZ or the collective "we" of all trans-Tasman operators.

 

[Altair]

Thanks for the list. There were some I had missed. So that would be a total of 26,857 seats per week, or an average of just under 3900 seats per day for NZ/SJ. So a bit hard for NZ/SJ to be flying 6500 empty seats trans-Tasman daily! But lets not let mathematics and logic get in the way of a good story.

I read the Air NZ response to the ACCC ruling as it was posted to the ASX site (under the Qantas stock listing) and it certainly implied it was NZ flights. The wording was something like this: "we fly the equivalent of 43 empty A320 aircraft across the Tasman each day". I certainly read the "we" to refer to Air NZ, but it is possible he was referring to the collective "we" of QF/NZ or the collective "we" of all trans-Tasman operators.

Boy they must have dramatically increased the number of seats since they put their submission together. Section 5.5 of their apllication states,"Air NZ estimates there are currently 6,300 empty one-way seats per day on the Tasman. This equate to the equivalent of almost 11 empty A320 aircraft per day on the Tasman, each operating two return trips."
http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/resources/tasman_mot_application_public.pdf
The earlier section shows how they calculate this and provides load factors. I am surprised that they can get load factors as they have always said that route specific are commercially sentsitive.
I never supported this proposal and still do not.

 

[garyjohn951]

(oops curfew)

When will people realise we are not all from Sydney in Australia and BUSINESSES do exist outside of the Sydney curfew !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would be happier getting up earlier to go to wellington than getting to a hotel 1.30am+ in WW of all places. Still the taxi ride is fast, last two trips never saw a sole around, could have been one of those future sci movies when the people left earth.

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

Hmmm I wonder if it is total (both directions added together) for QF + NZ + JQ + SJ?

---
And for Qantas, each week

AKL-ADL vv 3
AKL-BNE vv 10
AKL-MEL vv 14
AKL-SYD vv 28 (+6 codeshare on LA)
CHC-BNE vv 7
CHC-MEL vv 9
CHC-SYD vv 17
ZQN-SYD vv 1
WLG-BNE vv 3
WLG-MEL vv 7
WLG-SYD vv 14

Total 113 vv (+6 codeshare)

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

Anyway here is the current NZ schedule (and ignoring Norfolk Island, Noumea flights).

AKL-CNS vv 3 @ 320 / week
AKL-BNE vv 4 @ 744 and 7@ A320 / week
AKL-SYD vv 12 @ 763 and 13 @ A320 / week
AKL-MEL vv 7 @ 744 and 7 @ A320 / week
AKL-ADL vv 3 @ A320 / week
AKL-PER vv 7 @ 763 / week
WLG-BNE vv 2 @ A320 / week
WLG-SYD vv 13 @ A320 / week
WLG-MEL vv 4 @ A320 / week
CHC-BNE vv 6 @ A320 / week
CHC-SYD vv 14 @ A320 / week
CHC-MEL vv 10 @ A320 / week
ZQN-SYD vv 1 @ A320 / week

AKL-OOL vv 6 @ A320 / week
HLZ-BNE vv 3 @ A320 / week
HLZ-OOL vv 2 @ A320 / week
HLZ-SYD vv 3 @ A320 / week
HLZ-MEL vv 2 @ A320 / week
PMR-BNE vv 4 @ A320 / week
PMR-SYD vv 2 @ A320 / week
PMR-MEL vv 2 @ A320 / week
WLG-OOL vv 2 @ A320 / week
CHC-OOL vv 3 @ A320 / week
DUD-BNE vv 3 @ A320 / week
DUD-OOL vv 0 @ A320 / week
DUD-SYD vv 3 @ A320 / week
DUD-MEL vv 2 @ A320 / week

Total 11 @ 744 / week
Total 19 @ 763 / week
Total 83 @ A320 / week NZ
Total 37 @ A320 / week SJ
Total 150 / week or about 21 per day.

18 a day about right excluding SJ.

Forgot about ZQN

 

[Altair]

(oops curfew)

When will people realise we are not all from Sydney in Australia and BUSINESSES do exist outside of the Sydney curfew !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would be happier getting up earlier to go to wellington than getting to a hotel 1.30am+ in WW of all places. Still the taxi ride is fast, last two trips never saw a sole around, could have been one of those future sci movies when the people left earth.

AKL is 24 hours, CHC I am not too sure but WLG has a curfew, 01:30-06:00. Getting a taxi at WLG especially with a winter southerly can be very long....especially when the girlfriend, a WLG local, insists on a particular company that all the locals want to take as well....
What is worse is being diverted to AKL or CHC being put up in a hotel, thank god, then being told to catch a bus back to airport early morning to wiat for the weather to lift to allow you a plane to land in WLG.

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

(oops curfew)

When will people realise we are not all from Sydney in Australia and BUSINESSES do exist outside of the Sydney curfew !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would be happier getting up earlier to go to wellington than getting to a hotel 1.30am+ in WW of all places. Still the taxi ride is fast, last two trips never saw a sole around, could have been one of those future sci movies when the people left earth.

I appreciate your points but still don't think a redeye trans-tasman would be too popular with business travellers.

 

[NM]

Boy they must have dramatically increased the number of seats since they put their submission together. Section 5.5 of their apllication states,"Air NZ estimates there are currently 6,300 empty one-way seats per day on the Tasman. This equate to the equivalent of almost 11 empty A320 aircraft per day on the Tasman, each operating two return trips."

6300 empty seats is a lot more than 11 x A320, unless they are squeezing in 572 seats in each aircraft! Something does not add up.