Qantas Fleet

[mannej]

Not quite - the Airbus media releases talk about increased reliability/operational status pointing out the improvements made with each generation has decreased maintenance cost and decreased non-operational time.

On your point about 'whole of life cost' - well Q gives JQ the early benefit of the early years low cost of life and then moves the plane to Q for the balancing high cost of life. You're right - overall is a balance, trouble is the scales have consistently been balanced against Q and in JQ's favour. What costs more to operate a new A330 or a 12 year old A330?

Sweeping generalisations do not serve any purpose other than to trivialise. How about looking at a like-for-like comparison - sounds fair.

Hmmm I wonder what the airlines flying the long haul into/out of Australia to Asia/Mid East/US are using mostly B747 or B777?

Air Canada - B777
Air China - B777
Air NZ - B777
Asiana Airlines - B777
British Airways - B777
Cathay Pacific - B777
China Airlines - B777
China Eastern Airlines - B777
China Southern Airlines - B777
Etihad -B777
Emirates - B777
Garuda - B777
Korean Air - B777
Qatar - B777
Royal Brunei - B777 (B787)
Singapore Airlines - B777
Scoot - B777
Thai - B777
United Airlines - B777

And of course;

Qantas B747

Well what do you know, every other competing airline is flying B777s over B747s on routes competing against Q out of/into Australia. Thanks for getting me to do the numbers.

I hit my 30 minute limit - please feel free to add other airlines I have not covered yet.

Yes you were correct - it does appear the B777 is PERFECT vs the B747 for virtually every other airline competing against Q AND they are flying them.

Qantas is the ugly duckling with this comparison.

Can I ask you where the majority of JQ's 330's started their operational life with.

Also I am still trying to figure out what the 747 has to do with the 330 argument?

 

[CaviAck]

Not quite - the Airbus media releases talk about increased reliability/operational status pointing out the improvements made with each generation has decreased maintenance cost and decreased non-operational time.

On your point about 'whole of life cost' - well Q gives JQ the early benefit of the early years low cost of life and then moves the plane to Q for the balancing high cost of life. You're right - overall is a balance, trouble is the scales have consistently been balanced against Q and in JQ's favour. What costs more to operate a new A330 or a 12 year old A330?

Sweeping generalisations do not serve any purpose other than to trivialise. How about looking at a like-for-like comparison - sounds fair.

Hmmm I wonder what the airlines flying the long haul into/out of Australia to Asia/Mid East/US are using mostly B747 or B777?

Air Canada - B777
Air China - B777
Air NZ - B777
Asiana Airlines - B777
British Airways - B777
Cathay Pacific - B777
China Airlines - B777
China Eastern Airlines - B777
China Southern Airlines - B777
Etihad -B777
Emirates - B777
Garuda - B777
Korean Air - B777
Qatar - B777
Royal Brunei - B777 (B787)
Singapore Airlines - B777
Scoot - B777
Thai - B777
United Airlines - B777

CX uses A330s into Sydney. If you're going to add carriers that QF doesn't directly compete with then there's MH, VN and D7 that use A330s as well. Oh and SQ uses A330s in addition to their 777s and A380s. CA also uses A330s into Australia, not just B777s. And these are just the ones off the top of my head.

Also with Scoot, I don't think the use of the 777s was a choice but rather it was a hand-me-down from parent SQ of their old midlife 777s. They're getting replaced by 787s, with the first coming in November and the rest at one a month in February.

I better stop here before it gets any further off topic.... This is a discussion about QF's fleet after all.

 

[ajw373]

Again, where is your proof that the 330's decrease the service reliability for QF, or are you making the claim without any evidence to back it up?

Nothing. Look at his posts, makes a sweeping generalisation then goes into a long winded rant about 777's, Jetstar and old A330's. Of course the A330's are not actually old and are the one aircraft that Qantas is really happy with for Asian flying. He also quotes the oldest one as the age rather than average and of course the oldest ones were actually Qantas handme downs returned.

 

[ajw373]

Moved from other thread because the discussion is better had here:

Have combined a couple of posts into one.

Q mgmt and board say that the A3xxs are similar enough that the model range is 'cost effective', with a similar claim on the Boeings. Q does not have any B777s though and that seems to be the $2.8bn question. Even TG has more B777s than B747s.

It is not that small a number of airlines that have added B777s to their fleet in fact have a look at this.

How about a like-for-like comparison - sounds fair.

Hmmm I wonder what the airlines flying the long haul into/out of Australia to Asia/Mid East/US are using mostly B747 or B777?

Air Canada - B777
Air China - B777
Air NZ - B777
Asiana Airlines - B777
British Airways - B777
Cathay Pacific - B777
China Airlines - B777
China Eastern Airlines - B777
China Southern Airlines - B777
Etihad -B777
Emirates - B777
Garuda - B777
Korean Air - B777
Qatar - B777
Royal Brunei - B777 (B787)
Singapore Airlines - B777
Scoot - B777
Thai - B777
United Airlines - B777

And of course;

Qantas B747

Well what do you know, every other competing airline is flying B777s over B747s on routes competing against Q out of/into Australia. Thanks for getting me to do the numbers.

I hit my 30 minute limit - please feel free to add other airlines I have not covered yet.

It does appear the B777 is PERFECT vs the B747 for virtually every other airline competing against Q AND they are flying them.

Qantas is the ugly duckling with this comparison.

Lets look hey? My comments in bold.

Air Canada - B777
Air China - B777 They have 46 A330's compared to 29 777's, of which the 10 200's are being replaced by more A330's Not sure what they fly to Aus though.
Air NZ - B777 Mostly A320 to Australia
Asiana Airlines - B777
British Airways - B777 Yeah and also the biggest 747 customer who has recently announced a refurb of 20 or so of their 747's
Cathay Pacific - B777 [Also a very large A330 customer, which operate most flights to Aus
China Airlines - B777 Actually they have NO 777's, they have some on order though. Big A330 customer though and still flying 747 not sure if to Aus
China Eastern Airlines - B777 As above but no 747's
China Southern Airlines - B777 12 compared to 30 odd A330's and A380's
Etihad -B777 Do they still operate the A340 to Aus? Plus big A330 customer not that they fly them to Aus though
Emirates - B777 And A380
Garuda - B777They don't fly these to Aus all flights are A330 plus 737 to Perth
Korean Air - B777 Fly A330's to Aus and have ordered 747-8's
Qatar - B777
Royal Brunei - B777 (B787)
Singapore Airlines - B777 Only on Syd and Melb, plus A330's and A380's
Scoot - B777Old SIA handme downs of course.
Thai - B777 Plus 747 to Aus and I think some A330's too, have no plans for 747 retirement yet and operate A380 long haul (not to Aus clearly)
United Airlines - B777 Only very recently

Hawaian - A330
Malaysian - A330 plus still think one flight to Mel on 777

So from what I can see is on routes to Asia Qantas is not really the ugly duckling, in fact I would say it flies the plane that I see the most common on intra-Asian flights (including Australia in Asia).

Long haul yes they don't operate the 777, they operate the A380 plus a handful of 747's to a few long haul destinations, which is not a surprise. Long haul Qantas would only benefit from the 777ER on a couple of routes, others they need the larger passenger capacity and of the A380 and 747.

Thanks for picking up my error on China Airlines - I'm not sure what went wrong there.

However; Apples and Oranges again.

Point addressed - what is flown more into Australia by airlines competing directly with Qantas - B777s or B747s.

That was the question raised and answered. In the previous posting that I answered it did not mention A330s nor A380s just the B777 vs Q's choice.

I answered the qn which is used more into Aust - B777 or B747-400s.

And China Eastern and several others on that list.

It was you who posed the question, which is pointless, talk about comparing apples to oranges. The reason simply because Qantas choose the A330 and A380 for the routes you seem to think Qantas should fly 777's on so the A330 and A380 need to be part of any discussion, especially the A330 as is in fact the A/C that flies the bulk of Austalian to Asia traffic, and which Qantas has many of and are happy with.

Oh as for BA, if you read what wrote about the 747, reference link now below it is clear they are not going away in a hurry as they ARE refurbishing part of their fleet. 18 of them, including new IFE and in 4 years they will still have 30 of them, clearly 12 will remain unrefurbished at that time. As for what is replacing the 747's it is not the 787 nor the 777 for that matter. The 787's are more or less replacing the 767's that BA uses on mid haul routes plus some new routes. Getting OT they have no plans for replacement of the 767's that fly 'domestically' around Europe, even though some are now 24 years old and the youngest 3 16 years old.

The 747 is in part being replaced by the A380, you know like the ones Qantas flies? The truth doesn't help your argument does it? BA also have on on order some 18 A350-1000's that are slated to replace SOME of the 747's and they still have 6 A380's still to come plus some options too. In fact by my count the 18 A350's plus the 6 A380's on order equals 24, with BA having 46 747's now, going to 18 that is a loss of 28, so about the same as the A350's+A380's on order.

Oh and the only reason BA acquired the 777-300ER (they only of 12 of them and orginally only ordered 6) was because of delays to the 787 program. Whether they disappear when the 787-9's arrive is anyone's guess, but for what it is worth 6 of the 12 are leased.

So in reality if you want a debate 777 vs 747 then maybe lets look at BA and only BA because within the same fleet is the only place a realistic comparison can be made. Now if the 777's is THAT good (and before I get bounced I agree the 777 is a good aircraft, just don't agree it is essential to Qantas) and the 747 is so bad then why is BA keeping and refurbishing 18 747's?

Unlike Qantas, having a big fleet of existing 777's would mean it is a trivial matter for BA to just buy another 50 777's and add to their fleet. But they aren't and I repeat they have no more 777's on order. So there must be something going for the 747 for them to want to keep 18 'old' 747's for the foreseeable future. Especially as the youngest 747 in the BA fleet is 15 years old. If we count back 18 frames then the 18th oldest BA 747's is 17 years old. Compared that to Qantas who plan to go to 9, 6 of which are ER's delivered 2002/2003 and the last 3 non ER's are from 1999. So after BA goes to 18 747's their youngest will be the same age as Qantas's oldest.

So riddle me that hey?

Source:

British Airways to refresh 18 B747s - Business Traveller

 

[Lonely Flyer]

I like 747s

 

[moa999]

Some positive comments from a senior QF person re the 789 options

http://euroaviavalencia.wordpress.com/2014/09/09/qantas-looking-forward-to-firming-787-9-options/

 

[RAM]

[h=2]Another data point on Q fleet costs for daily flight improvement. Swap B747-400 for B777-300ER. SIN-SYD. Ties into figures for PIA swap.

BA's Sydney route sees GBP30 million improvement – but not strictly due to exit of Qantas relationship[/h] BA in Nov-2013 reported that in the six months following the BA-Qantas JSA ending in Mar-2013, BA's Singapore-Sydney routes managed a GBP30 million profit improvement year-on-year (exact profit/loss was not disclosed). This is no small sum. In comparison, Virgin Atlantic said its Hong Kong-Sydney route was losing around AUD10 million (GBP5.5 million) a year.
BA was eager to promote its ability to stand on its own after the Qantas partnership, but this figure includes other ingredients, as BA made structural changes to the route that impacted profit. This included switching from 747-400 to 777-300ER equipment, so that capacity decreased 11% but unit revenues improved by 29%. BA's 777-300ER seats the same as the 747-400 it used, but with a much lower operating cost. First and economy class have the same number of seats while the 777-300ER has fewer business seats and more premium economy seats.


BA 747-400 and 777-300ER configuration comparison: May-2014

	First	Business	Premium Economy	Economy	Total
747-400	14	70	30	185	299
777-300ER	14	56	44	185	299

Source: CAPA - Centre for Aviation and BA

 

[ajw373]

[h=2]Another data point on Q fleet costs for daily flight improvement. Swap B747-400 for B777-300ER. SIN-SYD. Ties into figures for PIA swap.

BA's Sydney route sees GBP30 million improvement – but not strictly due to exit of Qantas relationship[/h] BA in Nov-2013 reported that in the six months following the BA-Qantas JSA ending in Mar-2013, BA's Singapore-Sydney routes managed a GBP30 million profit improvement year-on-year (exact profit/loss was not disclosed). This is no small sum. In comparison, Virgin Atlantic said its Hong Kong-Sydney route was losing around AUD10 million (GBP5.5 million) a year.
BA was eager to promote its ability to stand on its own after the Qantas partnership, but this figure includes other ingredients, as BA made structural changes to the route that impacted profit. This included switching from 747-400 to 777-300ER equipment, so that capacity decreased 11% but unit revenues improved by 29%. BA's 777-300ER seats the same as the 747-400 it used, but with a much lower operating cost. First and economy class have the same number of seats while the 777-300ER has fewer business seats and more premium economy seats.


BA 747-400 and 777-300ER configuration comparison: May-2014

	First	Business	Premium Economy	Economy	Total
747-400	14	70	30	185	299
777-300ER	14	56	44	185	299

Source: CAPA - Centre for Aviation and BA

Actually until even early this year BA was considering scrapping Sydney, despite having used the 77W for a while. What save it was the use of mixed fleet crew, you know the ones that are paid a pittance and worked like slaves.

 

[RAM]

Actually until even early this year BA was considering scrapping Sydney, despite having used the 77W for a while. What save it was the use of mixed fleet crew, you know the ones that are paid a pittance and worked like slaves.

Like the NZ air-crew? Or Jetstar?

Interesting looking into the yield figures for the UK/Aust route for June 2014 for Q. To B/E needs to be 84%+.
What shocked me was the number of Emirates flights and although more B777 than A380 - still would not be making money.
Big difference on BA which only needs 72%b/e for its B777-300ER.

Service to/from	No. of	Pax	Seats	Seat
	Flights	Carried	Available	Utilisation %

UK

60

21 712

29 032

74.8 Q

UK

30

7 137

8 910

80.1 BA

United Arab Emirates

344

97 086

133 111

72.9 Emirates

Qantas Airways	Brazil	4	1 200	1 456	82.4
	Chile	11	2 575	4 004	64.3
	China	32	5 087	8 315	61.2
	Hong Kong (SAR)	94	21 067	31 002	68.0
	Indonesia	18	3 962	5 346	74.1
	Japan	30	6 753	10 952	61.7
	New Caledonia	18	1 935	3 084	62.7
	New Zealand	445	41 700	70 383	59.2
	Papua New Guinea	51	2 097	3 774	55.6
	Philippines	17	4 706	5 049	93.2
	Singapore	115	24 304	35 013	69.4
	South Africa	30	5 987	10 929	54.8
	Thailand	30	5 239	8 892	58.9
	UK	60	21 712	29 032	74.8
	USA	180	51 568	62 784	82.1
Qantas Airways	ALL SERVICES	1 135	199 892	290 015	68.9

 

[dajop]

The BA SIN/SYD comments are interesting. I suspect the appeal of the 77W is not only from a cost point of view, as from a customer point if view the onboard product became more competitive with SQ and QF. All of a sudden BA are operating a new 77W against SQ and QF A330s compared to before when you had old 744s against SQ and QF A380/ refitted 744.

 

[knasty]

I find BA Y quite competitive for both hard and soft product - QF can learn a lot from BA's hot breakfast. 747 and 777-200 is a different story.

 

[Flyerqf]

Ex-JQ A332 VH-EBC is due back from SIN to BNE tomorrow night at 7.55pm and should enter service with QF the following day.

 

[Flyerqf]

A322 VH-EBA is also now back in QF service after completing conversion from JQ at BNE.

With EBC due back from SIN tonight and EBD to follow, this will take the QF A330-200 fleet to 16.

14 of these are used for domestic east-west coast services and two are going to be used on international services to allow the B747 on SYD-SIN and B767 on SYD-HNL retirements.

With the final 2 A332s to transfer from JQ early next year, and no domestic capacity increased planned on east to west routes, I'd expect these to go to international.

Therefore, I think it's inevitable that SYD to NRT will become A330 route next year, as they won't have enough B747 aircraft to operate all the routes announced for next year.

They have 11 x B744 after two retirements planned next month:

BNE LAX - 2
SYD LAX - 1.5
SYD JNB - 1.5
MEL LAX - 1
SYD HKG - 1
SYD SCL - 1 (2 on Saturdays)
SYD YVR - 1 (March onwards if approved)
Maintenance / season adjustments - 2

No room for NRT. It will be interesting to see whether they go double daily to NRT - one morning and one evening departure - rather than having two aircraft tied up spending all day on the ground - 1 in Narita and 1 in Sydney.

 

[CaviAck]

With the final 2 A332s to transfer from JQ early next year, and no domestic capacity increased planned on east to west routes, I'd expect these to go to international.

When you say this have you accounted for the 767 retirements? I know the A330s will be plying the golden triangle in lieu of the 763s. CNS-SYD are going 738s so that eliminates the replacement of the daily 763 on that route.

 

[Flyerqf]

Also further to that, does anyone know which two 747s are being retired next?

OJA and OJI are the two oldest and the only two 747s not in the New Roo livery, so it would make he most sense that they are next to be retired.

However OJA and OJI have a 3-class config whereas OEB and OJM have a 4-class config.

So the question is, which 2 of the non refurbed planes are staying for another 2 years?!

 

[Flyerqf]

When you say this have you accounted for the 767 retirements? I know the A330s will be plying the golden triangle in lieu of the 763s. CNS-SYD are going 738s so that eliminates the replacement of the daily 763 on that route.

The A330s will not be plying the golden triangle in lieu of 763s. By the time these final 2 A330s arrive, the 763s will be long gone.

There will be some A330s on the golden triangle in between east to west flights but majority of current 763s on golden triangle are being replaced by 737s, hence the refurb to add more seats.

A330 is just not the right aircraft for regular use on golden triangle.

 

[sydstar]

No room for NRT. It will be interesting to see whether they go double daily to NRT - one morning and one evening departure - rather than having two aircraft tied up spending all day on the ground - 1 in Narita and 1 in Sydney.

I've read elsewhere that part of the reason for the current night QF21 to NRT is because of a preference from J pax for the overnight which leads to the 12 hours on the ground in NRT. I know NRT tends to have pretty heavy Y loads as well.

I'd love to see NRT as a double daily - but is it more likely that it could be under the new 'seasonal' style timetable, with a daily 21/22 on the 330, with a double daily during peak season considering Japan being a major ski destination?

 

[Flyerqf]

I've read elsewhere that part of the reason for the current night QF21 to NRT is because of a preference from J pax for the overnight which leads to the 12 hours on the ground in NRT. I know NRT tends to have pretty heavy Y loads as well.

I'd love to see NRT as a double daily - but is it more likely that it could be under the new 'seasonal' style timetable, with a daily 21/22 on the 330, with a double daily during peak season considering Japan being a major ski destination?

Obviously there would need to be enough demand to operate double daily flights but it does make sense, in that it doesn't require any additional aircraft and increases utilisation, one of Qantas' key strategies in their transformation plan.

You could have a new SYD-NRT flight that leaves at 9.30am and arrives in NRT at 6.20pm. Then turns around to operate the evening QF22 departure.

QF21 could still be an evening departure from Sydney and upon arrival into NRT turnaround to operate a new daytime flight to SYD.

Same amount of aircraft but more frequency and slight capacity increase. Business travellers also don't lose their evening departures.

 

[docjames]

Also further to that, does anyone know which two 747s are being retired next?

OJA and OJI are the two oldest and the only two 747s not in the New Roo livery, so it would make he most sense that they are next to be retired.

However OJA and OJI have a 3-class config whereas OEB and OJM have a 4-class config.

So the question is, which 2 of the non refurbed planes are staying for another 2 years?!

Of course also factor in maintenance requirements and flight hours so who knows!

 

[Himeno]

I've read elsewhere that part of the reason for the current night QF21 to NRT is because of a preference from J pax for the overnight which leads to the 12 hours on the ground in NRT. I know NRT tends to have pretty heavy Y loads as well.

I'd love to see NRT as a double daily - but is it more likely that it could be under the new 'seasonal' style timetable, with a daily 21/22 on the 330, with a double daily during peak season considering Japan being a major ski destination?

I don't know how true that claim is. The SYD-NRT JL flight is a day flight leaving in the morning. It is almost always booked out.
The last QF22 flight I was on gave me an op up as Y was over booked. I also had an op up on a QF21 last year, but lost it when weather in SYD forced a reroute to CX via MEL (but I got an op up on CX when I got to MEL anyway).

It would be quite easy for QF to get a double daily on SYD-NRT and improve aircraft use.
Retime QF22 for a day flight turning from QF21 (none of this 14 hours sitting at NRT).
Codeshare on JL771/772.