Qantas Domestic Business Lounge - oneworld Emerald access Discussion

[Dave Noble]

Re: status based lounge access on oneworld

An interesting discussion. I think the main issues is the oneworld rules are designed predominately around International travel where there is availability of 3-classes (at least on some routes) by all oneworld members.

As for Qantas Domestic, I will say it again --
The Qantas Business Lounge is available to top-tier passengers by class of service (Business) and top-tier FF's (Qantas Plat and oneworld Emerald)
The Qantas Club is available to second-tier and FFs (Qantas Gold and oneworld Sapphire) and Qantas Club members.

What Qantas permits is correctly listed; what may have been being thought when the rules were being published or what a particular carrier wants to do. If an airline chooses to be part of an alliance , surely they should provide the benefits as published not as they deem that they want to? If the latter is the case, then there is no validity to complain if a carrier makes up its own rules as it goes

 

[dfcatch]

Just to change the direction of the discussion slightly.....

It seems there are two predominant schools of thought here:

1/ OWS should have access to 2nd tier lounges (and QF provides this by way of "Qantas Club" and "International Business Lounge" aka Qantas Club; BA provides this by way of Galleries Business Lounge)

OWE should have access to top tier lounges (and QF provides this by way of "International First Lounge" and "Domestic Business Lounge"; BA provides this by way of Galleries First Lounge).

And that this approach meets the intent of the OW rules.


2/ OWS should have access to the same facilities as "business-class pax", and therefore QF should allow OWS into its Domestic Business Lounge

OWE should have access to the same facilities as "first-class pax", and therefore BA should allow OWE into its Concorde Room.

And this approach means that QF are NOT meeting its OW obligations

-------------------------------------------

Just to pose a slightly different question to Dave and the others in the #2 school of thought......
Forgetting about Concorde Room, and the semantics of the OW wording......

In an ideal world - how would you set the access rules? Would you allow OWS into domestic business lounges (and possibly reduce the incentive for QF to offer a premium domestic lounge in the first place / or on the flip-side blur the distinction between OWS and OWE)?
Or would you keep access rules the way they are?

 

[JohnK]

Wow.

Dave I have often disagreed with you but firmly behind you on this one.I have been denied access to the QF business lounges in BNE and MEL as an AA plat.

And rightly so.

The only mistake Qantas have done is naming the lounges. An AA Platinum is only equivalent to a QF Gold or Oneworld Saphhire and neither has (or should have) access to domestic business lounges.

Perhaps the Qantas Domestic Business Lounges should be renamed to "Qantas Platinum and Business Class Passengers Only Lounge" and then there cannot be any disputes.

 

[NM]

I guess unless QF reverses it's access policy this should be noted as another drawback for all those undertaking the AA challenge for status!

Note the lounge access issue has nothing to do specifically with AA Platinum. AA Platinum has just been used here are an example of a non-Qantas OneWorld Sapphire status level. Qantas' denial of OneWorld Sapphire access to their business class lounges at domestic terminals applies equally to all OneWorld programs.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Re: status based lounge access on oneworld

What Qantas permits is correctly listed; what may have been being thought when the rules were being published or what a particular carrier wants to do. If an airline chooses to be part of an alliance , surely they should provide the benefits as published not as they deem that they want to? If the latter is the case, then there is no validity to complain if a carrier makes up its own rules as it goes

I'd be surprised if QF didn't clear this with their alliance partners...

 

[Dave Noble]

Just to pose a slightly different question to Dave and the others in the #2 school of thought......
Forgetting about Concorde Room, and the semantics of the OW wording......

In an ideal world - how would you set the access rules? Would you allow OWS into domestic business lounges (and possibly reduce the incentive for QF to offer a premium domestic lounge in the first place / or on the flip-side blur the distinction between OWS and OWE)?
Or would you keep access rules the way they are?

The Concorde room used to make sense to be separate since it used to be , when Concorde was operating, that 1st class passengers did not get access to the Concorde Room

With the lounge being designated a Business Lounge, then I would allow OWS access to the lounge other than Qantas Gold members. There is no issue with restricting access to QFF members. I posit that the number of OWS using domestic QF lounges is fairly small ( esp compared to QF Gold ) so as not to greatly impact the crowd in the lounge.

I do not think that it is ok for *any* OW carrier to start making up rules in contravention of the OW policies

 

[ajw373]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

It isn't a 1st class lounge.

Dave

Actually that is exactly what it is, except in name (and the fact they allow business class pax in) as it would be silly to name it first class lounge when they don't offer first domesticly. So it gets back to what I have been saying all along, Qantas is doing the right thing, they are giving lounge access to everyone as appropriate, all they have done is chosen a name that might be confusing to some.

PS. Not sure if you have been in one of these domestic lounges, but inside it is really no different to a Qantas club. Just a few less people, which I beleive was the whole idea of them.

 

[Siegfried]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

Actually that is exactly what it is, except in name (and the fact they allow business class pax in) as it would be silly to name it first class lounge when they don't offer first domesticly. So it gets back to what I have been saying all along, Qantas is doing the right thing, they are giving lounge access to everyone as appropriate, all they have done is chosen a name that might be confusing to some.

Maybe QF could rebrand their Dom J offering as F - it might make some people more accepting of the prices they charge.

PS. Not sure if you have been in one of these domestic lounges, but inside it is really no different to a Qantas club. Just a few less people, which I beleive was the whole idea of them.

From what I have seen in SYD and MEL (not so much BNE), the wine selection seems a little better, and the hot food more plentiful (this could be because of superior service levels to the QP - or as you say, it could just be a function of less people in the lounge).

 

[Dave Noble]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

Actually that is exactly what it is, except in name (and the fact they allow business class pax in) as it would be silly to name it first class lounge when they don't offer first domesticly. So it gets back to what I have been saying all along, Qantas is doing the right thing, they are giving lounge access to everyone as appropriate, all they have done is chosen a name that might be confusing to some.

PS. Not sure if you have been in one of these domestic lounges, but inside it is really no different to a Qantas club. Just a few less people, which I beleive was the whole idea of them.

Do they permit business class passengers in?
Is it called a business class lounge?

I do know what they are like and have been to the Sydney and Melbourne lounges. That they are not much different also fits in with them being business class lounges

Qantas is not doing the right thing by making up rules that go against OW rules. OW committments should take precedence over Qantas's own desires.

If one OW carrier starts flouting policies, then why shouldn't the others start following suit and start prohibiting Qantas Gold members to business lounges ?

if Qantas was not part of an alliance or part of some alliance that didnt have clearly defined lounge access rules that would be another matter

 

[Princess Fiona]

Maybe QF could rebrand their Dom J offering as F - it might make some people more accepting of the prices they charge.



From what I have seen in SYD and MEL (not so much BNE), the wine selection seems a little better, and the hot food more plentiful (this could be because of superior service levels to the QP - or as you say, it could just be a function of less people in the lounge).

The SYD showers are great esp when using J Lounge( admittedly against the rules) as an arrivals lounge after the red eye from PER. I also agree that the wine and food are marginally better and the lounge less crowded. I think re-naming the lounge would solve a lot of the perceived problems re OW access highlighted in this thread

 

[anat0l]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

Do they permit business class passengers in?

Just because a lounge admits business class passengers is not sufficient to call it a business class lounge for the purposes of a oneworld lounge and its cross-alliance access policies.

 

[Flashback]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

From what I have seen in SYD and MEL (not so much BNE), the wine selection seems a little better, and the hot food more plentiful (this could be because of superior service levels to the QP - or as you say, it could just be a function of less people in the lounge).

The 'hot food' on offer is generally better than that which you will find in the QP. Different food is on offer more so than there being more there due to less PAX...

 

[nlagalle]

Re: platinum - thrown out of galleries first at heathrow, waiting for explanation

If one OW carrier starts flouting policies, then why shouldn't the others start following suit and start prohibiting Qantas Gold members to business lounges ?

if Qantas was not part of an alliance or part of some alliance that didnt have clearly defined lounge access rules that would be another matter

Ok look at it this way:

Most OW carriers fly predominately internationally due to the size of their country.

So they have an international J lounge for OWS and business class passengers. How many of these carriers have domestic J lounges with the same access? I would be surprised if they maintain 2 or 3 lounges domestically. Or would they have a standard lounge much like the Qantas Club?

QF and AA are different as they have a massive amount of Domestic flights over any of the other OW carriers.

 

[serfty]

The 'hot food' on offer is generally better than that which you will find in the QP. Different food is on offer more so than there being more there due to less PAX...

just for example, last Wednesday morning the MEL Business lounge had Scrambled eggs, small b'fast sausages,baked beans, sautéed Spinach, warm ham and cheese croissants, 'drop scones' with maples syrup amongst other delicacies.

 

[Flashback]

just for example, last Wednesday morning the MEL Business lounge had Scrambled eggs, small b'fast sausages,baked beans, sautéed Spinach, warm ham and cheese croissants, 'drop scones' with maples syrup amongst other delicacies.

Yum! Much better than the bircher muesli and toast we get in the pleb's QP

 

[dk4]

Ducks and geese

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then the only geese around are the ones telling me it’s a goose (or maybe some geese who believe them).

@dfcatch, if we are to follow you’re interpretation of the 1W lounge access intent

OWE should have access to top tier lounges …

Then Qantas is in breach of these terms at all terminals where it operates “the Chairmans Lounge”. I would have no hesitation in describing that lounge as the “top tier” of QF domestic lounges. Thus if intent was important - all nonQF 1W emerald card holders, should be welcomed into that lounge.

Next issue, who ever the QF goose was that came up with the name “Business Lounge” and thought to apply access rights differently to International Travel versus Domestic Travel, should get a swift kick up the @! To relieve themselves of the golden egg never laid.

As for solutions, there have been numerous mentioned already.

But here some considerations –

1./ Allow all nonQF 1W sapphire (excluding AAdvantage card holders) to use any Qantas business lounge, network-wide, when their next departure is with 1W. [For AAdvantage customers, “Australia” should be added to the list of domestic places where elite status doesn’t qualify for domestic lounge access. Great for AA, as it improves the value of their Admirals Club product (and means only paying customers get into the Qantas Club). Great for QF, as it stops many Australian based travellers transitioning to AAdvantage as a back door to a Sapphire privilege, that would be withheld from them as QF FF gold.]

2./ Rename the whole domestic premium class “domestic first” or such like (booking codes must also change to F… etc, remember the “duck” analogy!) This could be a benefit to QF, because if DJ is to introduce its own domestic business class, overnight they can add value to all QFF domestic premium cabin ticket holders, who would earn Status Credits & Points at a higher rate! (Burning value doesn’t have to diminish, if the rules are changed to stipulate that when “business class” is not featured on an aircraft, customers purchasing a “business class” award or upgrade will be accommodated in the next highest level of available service. i.e. “domestic first” on two cabin services, or “economy” on single cabin services.)

3./ Rebrand the QF entry level international lounges as "Qantas Club with International Business Lounge", so that customers can understand that the bloody things are both in some terminals, and separate in others.

4./ Rework the 1W sapphire privileges, to state - lounge access is to the “frequent flier club lounge” where available, otherwise the “business class lounge”. Obviously 1W’s original “intent” here was to try to deal with two differing styled loyalty systems, used by various 1W airlines. [i.e. those airlines which use a paid club lounge system (e.g. AA) and those airlines that use a tier based system (e.g. BA) and combine the whole thing with a class of service system (e.g. J tickets). But this falls down at QF because (the smart little geese that they are) use BOTH the paid club system (Qantas Club) AND the tier based system (Gold, Platinum, + throw in Chairmans Lounge for good measure). So when they need the “class of service system” to cope with all this, it (quite rightly) falls flat on its face.]

1W’s advantage over the massive Star Alliance network, is that it should be able to use its smaller size to offer more standardised service levels to all partner airlines’ elites. (i.e. “seamless” in many senses across its smaller network): 1W obviously recognises this advantage, because it offers the emerald status level, but it then allows individual airlines to constant shoot each other in the foot (ala Star Alliance style) by not adhering to the key - 3 tier principle. (Privileges roughly rated as - Ruby for frequent economy class travellers = a few perks from J, Sapphire for class transitioning frequent economy/business passengers = always, all the perks of J on the ground & Emerald for frequent business class travellers = treated to all the perks of F except service in that cabin.)

If we assume that one of the main things that business customers want is “network”, 1W needs other competitive advantages to combat the ubiquitous Star Alliance. Qantas is particularly at risk in this area from Star Alliance, because in today’s world; the short haul LCC/BFOD combined with medium/long haul in J strategy, is becoming more palatable to the travellers, if not just the number crunchers.

 

[nlagalle]

just for example, last Wednesday morning the MEL Business lounge had Scrambled eggs, small b'fast sausages,baked beans, sautéed Spinach, warm ham and cheese croissants, 'drop scones' with maples syrup amongst other delicacies.

I had that too in the MEL J lounge last month. In the MEL QP they had danishes this morning too. Must be a new thing?

 

[Dave Noble]

Re: Ducks and geese

1./ Allow all nonQF 1W sapphire (excluding AAdvantage card holders) to use any Qantas business lounge, network-wide, when their next departure is with 1W. [For AAdvantage customers, “Australia” should be added to the list of domestic places where elite status doesn’t qualify for domestic lounge access. Great for AA, as it improves the value of their Admirals Club product (and means only paying customers get into the Qantas Club). Great for QF, as it stops many Australian based travellers transitioning to AAdvantage as a back door to a Sapphire privilege, that would be withheld from them as QF FF gold

I agree with most mentioned except the continual misunderstanding of the benefits of AA Platinum. In Australia, AA PLT is no different to BA Silver.

When getting confused on international, consider... when Qantas refers to domestic, they generally refer to domestic Australia and not all possible flights which are domestic ( such as LHR-MAN ). The OW page does clearly detail the entitlements

 

[NM]

Re: Ducks and geese

1./ Allow all nonQF 1W sapphire (excluding AAdvantage card holders) to use any Qantas business lounge, network-wide, when their next departure is with 1W. [For AAdvantage customers, “Australia” should be added to the list of domestic places where elite status doesn’t qualify for domestic lounge access. Great for AA, as it improves the value of their Admirals Club product (and means only paying customers get into the Qantas Club). Great for QF, as it stops many Australian based travellers transitioning to AAdvantage as a back door to a Sapphire privilege, that would be withheld from them as QF FF gold.]

Why are you suggesting to exclude AA Platinum card holders? Why treat AA members any differently to any other non-QF Sapphire member? Just seems to over-complicate the situation. Now that AA has greatly tightened access to the Platinum Challenge (i.e. only for AA flight numbers and adding a cash enrolment fee) there will be very limited numbers of Australian based AA members using the Platinum Challenge to gain status. Also note that AA is very strict in status requalification requirements unlike QF who are very well known for renewing status when members fail to attain the published requirements. In many cases it requires more flying to retain AA Platinum than it does to retain QF Gold, especially when travelling in premium cabins, so hardly likely to be used as a means just to attain status for lounge access.

 

[Fifa]

'drop scones'

I haven't heard pikelets called drop scones for years!
Brings back memories - I might even make some this weekend.