Qantas AGM webcast

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According to Joyce, apparently Qantas is still investment grade, which I find odd (wasn't it downgraded some time ago?). And he mentions there are only two in the world - which is the other one?

S&P downgraded it in Sept to "BBB-/A-3", from BBB/A-2", which is the lowest investment grade rating. Southwest is the other according to Bloomberg who reported the news (apparently they are the only two with both Moodys and S&P Investment grade, however I note LH is also at the same ranking and they report they are one of 4.
 
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I was just thinking the other day, do the monthly capacity reports that are released, does the QF International figures only include QF operated flights or does it include QF codeshare flights, eg. MEL-NAN QF395 operated by Air Pacific?
 
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The quote from the ASX transcript reads:


Yeah I'd be a bit worried if the 'misquote' was indeed correct.


According to Joyce, apparently Qantas is still investment grade, which I find odd (wasn't it downgraded some time ago?). And he mentions there are only two in the world - which is the other one?



Considering the majority of shares are owned by faceless, ethically-challenged white collar criminal organisations, that doesn't surprise me one bit.

Since when has there been a company where mum and dad investors actually make an impact on the remuneration package?

Well... we did have the recent Fairfax spill, though I think that had significant backing from the larger investors.

The problem with that is, what the hell would mum & dad investor know about running an airline? Too much emotion and all that goes with it. If a business investment consortium shareholder does not agree with the way the airline is being run they will vote against the board renumeration package, if they do agree and are satisfied with the results then they will vote for it.

Mum & dad investors cannot distinguish between emotion & business.
 
I have strong feelings about the grounding. I hold Joyce's actions in contempt. However, I do not hold him in contempt, as a person. So I really don't think opinions on the grounding are a true indication of feelings for the person.

Penrice has recently suffered a second vote down of the remuneration report. I think there was another company that recently suffered a similar vote down.


Sent from the Throne
 
There are many views about the grounding.

In the three months prior to the grounding I had 4 cancelled dom flights and 2 decent delays.
In the twelve months post everything has been like clockwork

While it was a very drastic decision, given the substantial difference between the company and union position, it did seemingly prevent the "slow bake" by forcing the arbitration.


I also noted that Joyce again defended the 777 choices pointing out three periods when QF could have ordered the 777 and why it chose not to.
 
Considering the majority of shares are owned by faceless, ethically-challenged white collar criminal organisations, that doesn't surprise me one bit.

You're certainly excelling in hurling baseless insults against those you don't like .....

If you don't like the "faceless", perhaps you could put your name to your posts?
 
You're certainly excelling in hurling baseless insults against those you don't like .....

If you don't like the "faceless", perhaps you could put your name to your posts?

No requirements for names here, and if you want to find out try coming along to one of the social events, anat0l attends pretty much all your local ones!
 
I also noted that Joyce again defended the 777 choices pointing out three periods when QF could have ordered the 777 and why it chose not to.

BAs latest move probably has bought the issue to a head again, and of course QF still need to look at fleet needs soon for the 744 replacements, so perhaps AJ is hinting that now is the time, who knows.
 
BAs latest move probably has bought the issue to a head again, and of course QF still need to look at fleet needs soon for the 744 replacements, so perhaps AJ is hinting that now is the time, who knows.

Pretty sure the orders for the A380 and potentially some 787-9s cover off the 747 retirements.
 
98% of shares (by number of shares, not by shareholders) voted in favour of the remuneration package

As it turns out, it was merely a package for shares to be awarded if AJ meets a 3 year target. There is no immediate bonus or payout. I hope the targets were fairly aggressive, but apart from that nothing too much of note, and not a turncoat decision on AJ's decision earlier this year after the announcement of the loss.

I disgree, with over 30000 participants, what most people think is not voiced, obviously those with strong feelings voice them, but thats not representative of the majority by any means.

Be that as it may, for those that do not voice it is as much conceivable that the overall position could be either judgement (AJ held in contempt or not). That being said, notwithstanding the overwhelming opinions of those who do voice their position, I suppose the only "fair" thing to do would be to give the benefit of the doubt. That method in itself is likely debatable...

I have strong feelings about the grounding. I hold Joyce's actions in contempt. However, I do not hold him in contempt, as a person. So I really don't think opinions on the grounding are a true indication of feelings for the person.

The grounding was merely one example; in fact, many use that as a prime example to help back up and endorse their contempt for Joyce. Other actions that have been heralded as exemplifying Joyce's incompetence include the following quoted:
  • Ignoring 777s
  • Mismanagement of fleet and fleet age
  • Creation and development of Jetstar - this one is an AFF classic, with a decent chunk of people here committed to never flying the "Orange Cancer"; in particular, many times argued as being developed at the expense of Qantas proper
  • Failure to pay dividends
  • Share price plunging
  • Complacency of market position at hands of agile competitors, both in domestic and international (but especially latter)
  • Reduction of workforce
  • Withdrawal of services (e.g. QFi) or lack of decent services (or operated by JQ rather than QF), especially international (esp. PER, ADL, CNS, OOL)
  • General apathy of service standard or deployment: seat selection, operational upgrades, priority boarding...

I don't really buy the "ball and man" argument. Decisions are not made by themselves - it takes someone to make the decision and furthermore that someone must draw on some part of their mental being to actually make the decision. If it were so mechanistic as to suggest that one's self and the decisions they make could be isolated, then we may as well install a robot as a CEO. Also, there is a striking irony that a "good" decision promotes both the professional and personal level of one's person when praise is lauded, yet a "bad" decision supposedly only attacks the professional level of someone (and not the personal) when criticism is leveled.

So when people criticise or harbour contempt for AJ, they really are attacking both what he did and who he is. Just like those who threatened his life - they wanted to see to it that he was gone, so those decisions he was making (or the kinds of those decisions) ceased. How he would go may be extreme, but given that they wanted to stop those decisions (or rather, punish him for them) then the means were probably irrelevant.

To be honest, apart from perhaps the EK announcement and some isolated opinions from the industrial disputes last year (including the grounding) - and very isolated at that - no one really has given any good reason why anyone would not harbour contempt for AJ and his position as CEO of Qantas. What has he done that is right?

The problem with that is, what the hell would mum & dad investor know about running an airline? Too much emotion and all that goes with it. If a business investment consortium shareholder does not agree with the way the airline is being run they will vote against the board renumeration package, if they do agree and are satisfied with the results then they will vote for it.

Mum & dad investors cannot distinguish between emotion & business.

And what do a bunch of investment corporations know about running an airline (more than the mum and dad investor)? They do not know how to run an airline! They only know of profit, and that is all they really want to see. It doesn't matter how the company achieves that profit - as long as Qantas appears to have a robust financial profile, anything else that happens within the airline is not a big deal.

Those corporations don't care about Jetstar's impact on the Qantas brand. They don't care that the meals are getting smaller. They don't care that there are half a dozen kinds of Business product in the network. They don't care that 737-800s still operate coast-to-coast services. They don't care that the competing airline on the lucrative coast-to-coast market is flogging Qantas in terms of product. They don't care that PER and ADL are getting the short end of the stick for services. They don't care about the overcrowding of lounges. They don't care about the groundings - they really don't. They only time they care is if you can significantly tie it to the bottom line. Deliver on profit and look appealing financially - you've satisfied these "majority shareholders". The fact that these investment corporations have so far been validated in their confidence of taking a risk to invest in Qantas (so to speak) is no testament that they know how to run the airline.

At least the mum and dad investor can bring the important perspectives of customer service and corporate social responsibility to the fore better than the investment corporations, who won't do so and won't care to do so. Yes, that is not directly profit, and Qantas is a company that needs to make profit, and extra services don't come for free (and also involve risk), but at least mum and dad investors are more likely to comment on how the business is run from a service or customer point of view (ironically by virtue that they probably lack the profit / business acumen of the representatives from the investment corporations).

You're certainly excelling in hurling baseless insults against those you don't like .....

Can you give reasons why those insults are unfounded or untrue?
 
The targets are for him to ensure QF outperforms 75% of the companies listed on the ASX over the 3 years.

Not impossible given the low base they are starting from...
 
And what do a bunch of investment corporations know about running an airline (more than the mum and dad investor)? They do not know how to run an airline! They only know of profit, and that is all they really want to see. It doesn't matter how the company achieves that profit - as long as Qantas appears to have a robust financial profile, anything else that happens within the airline is not a big deal.

Those corporations don't care about Jetstar's impact on the Qantas brand. They don't care that the meals are getting smaller. They don't care that there are half a dozen kinds of Business product in the network. They don't care that 737-800s still operate coast-to-coast services. They don't care that the competing airline on the lucrative coast-to-coast market is flogging Qantas in terms of product. They don't care that PER and ADL are getting the short end of the stick for services. They don't care about the overcrowding of lounges. They don't care about the groundings - they really don't. They only time they care is if you can significantly tie it to the bottom line. Deliver on profit and look appealing financially - you've satisfied these "majority shareholders". The fact that these investment corporations have so far been validated in their confidence of taking a risk to invest in Qantas (so to speak) is no testament that they know how to run the airline.

At least the mum and dad investor can bring the important perspectives of customer service and corporate social responsibility to the fore better than the investment corporations, who won't do so and won't care to do so. Yes, that is not directly profit, and Qantas is a company that needs to make profit, and extra services don't come for free (and also involve risk), but at least mum and dad investors are more likely to comment on how the business is run from a service or customer point of view (ironically by virtue that they probably lack the profit / business acumen of the representatives from the investment corporations).

Wow...:shock:
 
As it turns out, it was merely a package for shares to be awarded if AJ meets a 3 year target. There is no immediate bonus or payout. I hope the targets were fairly aggressive, but apart from that nothing too much of note, and not a turncoat decision on AJ's decision earlier this year after the announcement of the loss.



Be that as it may, for those that do not voice it is as much conceivable that the overall position could be either judgement (AJ held in contempt or not). That being said, notwithstanding the overwhelming opinions of those who do voice their position, I suppose the only "fair" thing to do would be to give the benefit of the doubt. That method in itself is likely debatable...



The grounding was merely one example; in fact, many use that as a prime example to help back up and endorse their contempt for Joyce. Other actions that have been heralded as exemplifying Joyce's incompetence include the following quoted:
  • Ignoring 777s
  • Mismanagement of fleet and fleet age
  • Creation and development of Jetstar - this one is an AFF classic, with a decent chunk of people here committed to never flying the "Orange Cancer"; in particular, many times argued as being developed at the expense of Qantas proper
  • Failure to pay dividends
  • Share price plunging
  • Complacency of market position at hands of agile competitors, both in domestic and international (but especially latter)
  • Reduction of workforce
  • Withdrawal of services (e.g. QFi) or lack of decent services (or operated by JQ rather than QF), especially international (esp. PER, ADL, CNS, OOL)
  • General apathy of service standard or deployment: seat selection, operational upgrades, priority boarding...

I don't really buy the "ball and man" argument. Decisions are not made by themselves - it takes someone to make the decision and furthermore that someone must draw on some part of their mental being to actually make the decision. If it were so mechanistic as to suggest that one's self and the decisions they make could be isolated, then we may as well install a robot as a CEO. Also, there is a striking irony that a "good" decision promotes both the professional and personal level of one's person when praise is lauded, yet a "bad" decision supposedly only attacks the professional level of someone (and not the personal) when criticism is leveled.

So when people criticise or harbour contempt for AJ, they really are attacking both what he did and who he is. Just like those who threatened his life - they wanted to see to it that he was gone, so those decisions he was making (or the kinds of those decisions) ceased. How he would go may be extreme, but given that they wanted to stop those decisions (or rather, punish him for them) then the means were probably irrelevant.

To be honest, apart from perhaps the EK announcement and some isolated opinions from the industrial disputes last year (including the grounding) - and very isolated at that - no one really has given any good reason why anyone would not harbour contempt for AJ and his position as CEO of Qantas. What has he done that is right?



And what do a bunch of investment corporations know about running an airline (more than the mum and dad investor)? They do not know how to run an airline! They only know of profit, and that is all they really want to see. It doesn't matter how the company achieves that profit - as long as Qantas appears to have a robust financial profile, anything else that happens within the airline is not a big deal.

Those corporations don't care about Jetstar's impact on the Qantas brand. They don't care that the meals are getting smaller. They don't care that there are half a dozen kinds of Business product in the network. They don't care that 737-800s still operate coast-to-coast services. They don't care that the competing airline on the lucrative coast-to-coast market is flogging Qantas in terms of product. They don't care that PER and ADL are getting the short end of the stick for services. They don't care about the overcrowding of lounges. They don't care about the groundings - they really don't. They only time they care is if you can significantly tie it to the bottom line. Deliver on profit and look appealing financially - you've satisfied these "majority shareholders". The fact that these investment corporations have so far been validated in their confidence of taking a risk to invest in Qantas (so to speak) is no testament that they know how to run the airline.

At least the mum and dad investor can bring the important perspectives of customer service and corporate social responsibility to the fore better than the investment corporations, who won't do so and won't care to do so. Yes, that is not directly profit, and Qantas is a company that needs to make profit, and extra services don't come for free (and also involve risk), but at least mum and dad investors are more likely to comment on how the business is run from a service or customer point of view (ironically by virtue that they probably lack the profit / business acumen of the representatives from the investment corporations).



Can you give reasons why those insults are unfounded or untrue?

Think you need to take a chill pill and a glass of water.
 
The grounding was merely one example; in fact, many use that as a prime example to help back up and endorse their contempt for Joyce. Other actions that have been heralded as exemplifying Joyce's incompetence include the following quoted:
  • Ignoring 777s
  • Mismanagement of fleet and fleet age
  • Creation and development of Jetstar - this one is an AFF classic, with a decent chunk of people here committed to never flying the "Orange Cancer"; in particular, many times argued as being developed at the expense of Qantas proper
  • Failure to pay dividends
  • Share price plunging
  • Complacency of market position at hands of agile competitors, both in domestic and international (but especially latter)
  • Reduction of workforce
  • Withdrawal of services (e.g. QFi) or lack of decent services (or operated by JQ rather than QF), especially international (esp. PER, ADL, CNS, OOL)
  • General apathy of service standard or deployment: seat selection, operational upgrades, priority boarding...

I don't really buy the "ball and man" argument. Decisions are not made by themselves - it takes someone to make the decision and furthermore that someone must draw on some part of their mental being to actually make the decision. If it were so mechanistic as to suggest that one's self and the decisions they make could be isolated, then we may as well install a robot as a CEO. Also, there is a striking irony that a "good" decision promotes both the professional and personal level of one's person when praise is lauded, yet a "bad" decision supposedly only attacks the professional level of someone (and not the personal) when criticism is leveled.

Perhaps you don't exactly understand the ball and man argument? I don't like his decisions, I don't like the way he used to publicly run down the staff and I don't like the obvious preference given to JQ. Yes those are decision made by a man. But my dislike for his decisions does not stop me from believing that he is a decent person. Business is not personal. I can criticise someone's decisions without hating them personally.


Sent from the Throne
 
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Business is not personal. I can criticise someone's decisions without hating them personally.

Agree totally, and it's a mistake I see people with little life experience in a corporate environment make all the time, to their detriment.
 
I love the use of weasel words by AJ in the speech, ie

ImageUploadedByAustFreqFly1351892947.114930.jpg

The use of "domestic" clearly takes away the international problem, but what source is he using, for instance Ray Morgan has very different results and findings, even using the domestic weasel:

Satisfaction for Qantas Domestic has not recovered since the industrial action in late October 2011, which received widespread press coverage and affected 80,000 passengers.

The challenge for Qantas is to understand their loyal customers and the factors that impact on their satisfaction, particularly the lucrative business traveller market

ImageUploadedByAustFreqFly1351893150.798313.jpg
 
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Think you need to take a chill pill and a glass of water.

Isn't that one of those universal responses to arguments when you can't offer a satisfactory argument in return?

Perhaps you don't exactly understand the ball and man argument?

Perhaps I don't, but it seems to render the entire corporate face as being devoid of humanity.

It also seems to suggest that whilst you don't support the decisions made, it is relatively independent of who is the CEO. For example, hypothetically, if John Borghetti was the current CEO of Qantas and he had made those kinds of decisions, so you would not like those decisions all the same.

But we all know (with some confidence, not certain but confident) that if JB was in AJ's exact position, a number of those decisions would not have been made (if any), and several here would argue that the decisions made would be much more acceptable. So decoupling a decision from the person who made them is near impossible, because the genesis of the decision was a person in the first place.

I'd also argue that it is difficult to conceive a decision which didn't have someone's ethics, morals, thoughts, foresight etc. invested in it. So again, how can you decouple a decision from the person? Something in AJ's mind said to him that, as a function of his rationality, character and upbringing, the decisions he has made were the right thing......

markis10 said:
The use of "domestic" clearly takes away the international problem, but what source is he using, for instance Ray Morgan has very different results and findings, even using the domestic weasel:

So from here we can deduce that AJ has deliberately chosen a different source (or possibly fabricated a source) to make his point. That implies his character may embody elements of deception, dishonesty or embarrassment. I'd say it takes guts to trust confidence in a such a person, especially when they are being paid a couple of million a year.


Anyway.... this is far from the original argument, which stemmed from Mr Tilburn referring to AJ as a "little man", and how this was quite reprehensible. I suppose being of under average height has little to do with running Qantas (except perhaps deciding seat pitch). Perhaps the remark was not acceptable, but that said it was not the thrust of the statement that was made at that time, so at a critical function where people have the rarest of opportunities to judge the company in a proper manner, I still maintain, 'big deal'. Obviously Mr Tilburn has little respect for AJ (as well as Leigh Clifford).
 
You're certainly excelling in hurling baseless insults against those you don't like .....

If you don't like the "faceless", perhaps you could put your name to your posts?

Can you give reasons why those insults are unfounded or untrue?

I believe that the burden of proof should be on you to justify your position that "the majority of shares are owned by faceless, ethically-challenged white collar criminal organisations".
 
I believe that the burden of proof should be on you to justify your position that "the majority of shares are owned by faceless, ethically-challenged white collar criminal organisations".

There will be about 15 million superannuation statement worth looking at for the last couple of years and tell me that you couldn't have done a better job investing your money than some of the so called professional fund managers (which are mostly just index hugging overpaid and under-perfoming sheep that collect management fees).

Yes - I know there would be some exceptions and I don't doubt that most of them have ethical intentions but look at their track record.
 
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