More OW woes-Malev Ceases operation.

[elbarto]

Re: Malev Airlines grounded

The EU has a lot to answer for as they're they ones who told the Hungarians that the money they were injecting amounted to illegal aid. The Hungarian govt would probably have continued to pump money into it if it wasn't for the EU.

 

[darrend]

There are a lot of negatives around this, some positives I guess but for me and it is a very selfish view I acknowledge - the LCC regime will move in and take over. I for one enjoy the comforts afforded by a more full service airline (though to be honest Malev was a bit lacking).

That said my woes are nothing compared to those folk that have lost their jobs and those that have lost money on bookings or worse are stranded. Not to mention the flow on effects, creditors, tourism etc etc.

It certainly is a changing world.

 

[Alanslegal]

Wow, now I have paid flights 24/2 AMS-BUD(-AMS). Since they've ceased, will have to find an alternative and do a CC chargeback

 

[anat0l]

The EU has a lot to answer for as they're they ones who told the Hungarians that the money they were injecting amounted to illegal aid. The Hungarian govt would probably have continued to pump money into it if it wasn't for the EU.

There are a lot of negatives around this, some positives I guess but for me and it is a very selfish view I acknowledge - the LCC regime will move in and take over. I for one enjoy the comforts afforded by a more full service airline (though to be honest Malev was a bit lacking).

That said my woes are nothing compared to those folk that have lost their jobs and those that have lost money on bookings or worse are stranded. Not to mention the flow on effects, creditors, tourism etc etc.

It certainly is a changing world.

I don't think the EU has to answer to anything.

There are rules in place if Hungary is part of the EU and thus Malev was in that system.

As it stands, in a world where the ideals of free enterprise and market are promoted, if a company couldn't stand by itself in the marketplace irrespective of its non-controlling forces (e.g. passenger volume), then it probably doesn't deserve to do business.

It is unfortunate for those stuck with the problem like employees and stranded passengers, but although it's not their fault (at least substantially or almost completely) there mere fact there are those consequences is not a open-shut-book reason to keep the airline alive. If the airline couldn't survive as a business, then it is a failed business, and either should be reborn (wishful, there are a lot of creditors) or put to the block.

Most carriers should've been put on report already after the last GFC and obvious expectation of reduced passenger demand. Yes, the demand would've picked up, but that doesn't warrant operating on a financial knife-edge and expecting that you'll pull through. Malev didn't have an extensive network from what I could see (hardly any long haul or ultra long haul) and an almost homogeneous fleet (3 variants of 737 with only a few 767s that were given back to lessors, and thereafter no more wide bodies and only a few Q400s), so if it couldn't even sustain that network and yet be in deep trouble then I'm scarce to see why it would've been a business that's worth saving right now.

In any case, the EU was acting on the premise of illegal activity. It should not be a concern at all whether the consequences of the EU's actions result in the demise of the airline. Otherwise, why shouldn't any other company attempt to avoid a fine or illegal activity on the premise of compassion or empathy (which is false)?

 

[Timba-Jet]

This is sad news, seeing another national carrier fall to global economic forces. Just reinforces what a tough industry this is.

Hope somehow something can be salvaged for the Hungary, particularly the employees.

 

[Moopere]

the LCC regime will move in and take over. I for one enjoy the comforts afforded by a more full service airline (though to be honest Malev was a bit lacking)

I agree with you. I think the global market will continue to separate. Middle of the road carriers will fail, LCC's and _real_ full service airlines will prosper. Those who kid themselves into thinking they are full service when they are not globally competitive (ie; maintain a high standard) will fail as they are just middle carriers who are fooling themselves.

Good service is likely to get more expensive I think, LCC's will remain cheap with a focus on nickel and diming you.

 

[drron]

I don't think the EU has to answer to anything.

There are rules in place if Hungary is part of the EU and thus Malev was in that system.

As it stands, in a world where the ideals of free enterprise and market are promoted, if a company couldn't stand by itself in the marketplace irrespective of its non-controlling forces (e.g. passenger volume), then it probably doesn't deserve to do business.

Not so simple.The EU is hardly the bastion of free enterprise-just look what they are doing in Greece,Portugal etc.
And of course the IMF which by tradition always has a European head is the classic example of Do What I Say Not What I Do.
Just take the Asian Economic crisis in the late 90s-the Asians were told by the IMF to lift interest rates,Cut back on Government spending and let the banks go bust.nearly the opposite of what it is doing now that it is an European economic crisis.
On top of all this the Hungarian Government is a 95% shareholder of Malev-in a free enterprise system a dominant shareholder surely has a right to inject fresh capital.

 

[darrend]

Not so simple.The EU is hardly the bastion of free enterprise-just look what they are doing in Greece,Portugal etc.
And of course the IMF which by tradition always has a European head is the classic example of Do What I Say Not What I Do.
Just take the Asian Economic crisis in the late 90s-the Asians were told by the IMF to lift interest rates,Cut back on Government spending and let the banks go bust.nearly the opposite of what it is doing now that it is an European economic crisis.
On top of all this the Hungarian Government is a 95% shareholder of Malev-in a free enterprise system a dominant shareholder surely has a right to inject fresh capital.

Correct - "not so simple" - but I feel for different reasons. It is hard to understand how a model that has vastly different economies could be brought together to function in an equitable manner that improves the lives of all that are party to it especially when you consider all that brings along with it.

As for Hungary I believe their position (maybe not the government but certainly the people) is to exit the EU which in itself is not so easy.

I'm not sure the government representing the people can justify propping up an ailing business when so many other aspects of the economy are pretty dire. That said a state owned airline generally has a very different agenda than a private commercial operation and a valid argument does exist for the state to support an airline taking into account all the benefits such an operation brings to a country

Hungary is in the EU and did agree to certain rules - if the EU enforces those rules then Hungary being a voluntary informed signatory to the rules surely must submit to the EU's authority and comply.

I understand there are many facets to this and this is overly simplified and it could be a topic of considerable debate in its own right. Unfortunately though the underlying facts must be the airline was a loss producing venture and no money = no operation. More so given the current economic woes in Europe.

 

[anat0l]

Not so simple.The EU is hardly the bastion of free enterprise-just look what they are doing in Greece,Portugal etc.

There's a lot more to be said about the EU and its members but this is not the topic for its discussion.

On top of all this the Hungarian Government is a 95% shareholder of Malev-in a free enterprise system a dominant shareholder surely has a right to inject fresh capital.

Well the government stands as a special case, even if it is the majority owner. Given that the government's equity is essentially boundless (except to the extent of the host economy), you may want to argue in a true free enterprise system that the government shouldn't be considered a special case and thus be allowed, like any other shareholder in possession of equity, to inject as much as it wants into any company it owns.

I know it is against "the definition" but we all know by default that this is an untenable situation. You can imagine if QF was still a government owned company right now. If the Australian government decided to inject separate funds into QF for whatever reason, that would be completely unjust. QF must rely on its own equity and operations (constituted by its shareholders) to keep itself afloat.

As alluded to clearly by darrend, if MA couldn't sustain itself based on its own company equity and operations, then it probably isn't right to let it keep operating. The introduction of government support, even if it is a shareholder, in any case compromises free enterprise (although governments like to get around this by legislating it through an act). If the free enterprise ideal is the problem then so be it, but as a Western-centric society where the ideals are spearheaded by capitalism and democracy........

In short, I still contend that if MA isn't profitable by itself, then it should close, and the EU has no accountability in the matter whatsoever.

 

[dajop]

I'm not sure the government representing the people can justify propping up an ailing business when so many other aspects of the economy are pretty dire. That said a state owned airline generally has a very different agenda than a private commercial operation and a valid argument does exist for the state to support an airline taking into account all the benefits such an operation brings to a country

I think there is valid arguments, for the benefits airlines bring to countries like Samoa, Vanuatu, and even New Zealand - relatively remote islands with small(ish) populations where airlines can bring people and important/urgent goods to the country. Especially if a long way to anywhere. It's hard to make the same argument for Hungary I would have thought. For a start, there's Wizz, another Hungarian airline, then there's a range of different airlines that fly there from all over Europe. And of course ground transport - domestically small enough to cover by bus, road and train, and country is easily accessible via road and rail from various places. A state owned airline isn't quite the lifeline it is to remote island countries.

 

[oz74]

I really feel for all the employees and there family. Who would want to be an airline executive now in todays economic climate??

 

[Kefci2000]

It appears they’ve ceased flying.

Malev Stops Flying as Hungary Cuts Its Losses - Bloomberg

Hmmmm was just about to ticket my DONE4 which included ARN-BUD on Malev.

My problem now is no one else flys direct and BA and AY only have 2 and one flights a day at horrendous times for connections......

Anyone know if a late flight (stay at airport hotel) and fly early counts as a transfer or a stop on RTW??

 

[NM]

Anyone know if a late flight (stay at airport hotel) and fly early counts as a transfer or a stop on RTW??

If less than 24 hours between scheduled arrival and scheduled departure times, then it is treated as a transit only. More than 24 hours and it's a stop-over. I managed a 23:30 transit at LHR and a 23:20 transit at DFW before.

 

[drron]

Yes anat01 not a discussion for this thread but the ECB is twisting it's own rules to illegally help out European banks that deserve to be bankrupted.

 

[Mal]

Qf have the following waiver policy if booked through them / on a QF codeshare:

Latest Qantas News

Waiver Policy for Customers Affected by the Grounding of Malev Hungarian Airlines 04 February 2012

Due to the grounding of Malev Hungarian Airlines, the following Qantas marketed and Malev Hungarian Airlines operated flights will cease operations:
• QF3979 – Frankfurt to Budapest
• QF3980 – Budapest to Frankfurt

The following options are available to Qantas customers holding a valid ticket issued on/before 03 February 2012 who are affected by the grounding of Malev Hungarian Airlines.

For customers holding a Qantas (081) issued ticket :

Passengers may, without fee:
• Re-route/Re-book travel
- Reroute to/from Budapest via London using British Airways (BA) flights between Budapest and London, and Qantas/British Airways flights between London and Singapore/Australia;
- For customers needing to travel between Budapest and Frankfurt, or if via London option is not available, Re-book travel between Budapest and Frankfurt using Lufthansa (LH) flights.
- If above options are not available, Re-route to/from Budapest via Helsinki using Finnair (AY) between Budapest and Helsinki, connecting onto Qantas marketed and Finnair operated flights between Helsinki and Singapore (QF3874/QF3875);
- Return to the origin port via the most direct routing using Qantas (including Qantas marketed and British Airways operated) flights.
• Change Destinations. The value of the existing ticket can be used towards the purchase of a new ticket. If the new fare is more expensive than the existing ticketed fare, the fare difference is payable by the passenger. Applicable surcharges, fees and taxes may apply.
• Retain the value of the ticket in credit for future travel within 12 months from the original ticketed date of departure. If the new fare is more expensive than the existing ticketed fare, the fare difference is payable by the passenger. Applicable ticket surcharges, fees and taxes may apply.
• Refunds
 For customers who have commenced their journey a full refund of the affected sector(s) will be available
 For customers who have not commenced their journey a full refund will be available

Conditions
• All changes must be made prior to the original ticketed departure.
• New travel dates must be within ticket validity.
• Re-booking on Qantas (QF), British Airways (BA) and Finnair (AY) flights - If the same booking class is not available, the lowest booking class within the same cabin may be booked (eg within Business or Economy cabin)
• Re-booking on Lufthansa (LH) flights - Customers ticketed in Business cabin must be re-booked in Z class and subject to availability. Customers ticketed in Economy cabin must be re-booked in S class (If S class is not available, V class may be used);
• Qantas will not be responsible for paying any other costs or expenses such as hotel or other ground operator fees arising due to events beyond our control, unless required by applicable laws.
• All other rules and conditions of the ticket remain unchanged.
• Refunds requests must be submitted no later than 31 March 2012.

For customers holding a ticket issued by another carrier (non-081) except Malev Hungarian Airlines (182)

Passengers may, without fee:
• Re-route/Re-book travel
- Reroute to/from Budapest via London using British Airways (BA) flights between Budapest and London, and Qantas/British Airways flights between London and Singapore/Australia;
- Return to the origin port via the most direct routing using Qantas (including Qantas marketed and British Airways operated) flights.

For customers holding a ticket issued by Malev Hungarian Airlines (182) :

Passengers who have not commenced travel should refer to Malev Hungarian Airlines. If customers are able to make their own arrangement to join their ticketed Qantas marketed and operated flights (eg. QF5 and QF6), Qantas will be uplifting Malev customers holding (182) tickets for these flights.

For customers who have commenced travel, Qantas will uplift customers on their ticketed Qantas marketed and operated flights (eg. QF5 and QF6) only. Customers will need to refer to Malev Hungarian Airlines or the operating carrier for other ticketed segments where Qantas is not the operating carrier.

For customers with un-ticketed bookings :

For un-ticketed bookings, alternate routings can be rebooked subject to availability and tickets issued in accordance with fare conditions.

For customers on Frequent Flyer Award Tickets :

Passengers booked on Qantas flights (including Qantas codeshare flights operated by Jetstar) who are travelling on Qantas & Partner Classic Award and Qantas & Jetstar Any Seat Award tickets are entitled to the same options and conditions as listed above. Passengers on partner airline services are able to re-book or re-route subject to redemption seat availability only.

 

[The Rok]

It's all good, Ryanair is about to base 4 planes in Budapest in 2 weeks and operate 31 routes.

I wonder if QF will codeshare with FR?

 

[777]

Who would want to be an airline executive now in todays economic climate??

I'm sure they got their bonuses anyway. They usually do.

 

[drron]

I'm sure they got their bonuses anyway. They usually do.

Though AA in Chapter 11 has come up with an interesting proposal-

As you're well aware, on the question regarding compensation and being linked with the unions, Tom's answer was 100 percent correct. In the future, we will have first-dollar profit sharing, and the management team at American will not be rewarded with cash bonuses unless and until our profit sharing program pays out for our employees.

I will post a longer version in the AMR bankruptcy thread.

 

[Kefci2000]

If less than 24 hours between scheduled arrival and scheduled departure times, then it is treated as a transit only. More than 24 hours and it's a stop-over. I managed a 23:30 transit at LHR and a 23:20 transit at DFW before.

Thanks, was finally able To confirm on oneworld planner that ARN-LHR late night and LHR-BUD early morning is valid ( stupid iPad and not allowing flash.....)

Just await the travels agents confirmation.

A pity as I was invited to a very nice dinner in Stockholm.....:evil:

 

[N860CR]

Hmm... not sure how I'll be able to work with this one.

I'm booked on MA in and out of SKP as part of a OneWorld award. No other OneWorld airline services SKP and there aren't even any options to neighbouring countries on BA that work on the days I'm travelling (or either side).

Any idea what Qantas will do? Even if I change destinations (which I don't want to do), the chances of getting J award seats (as booked) are slim. I'm guessing they aren't going to rebook on another non-OneWorld carrier.