Middle East Airspace Diversions/Cancellations

[stu961]

Whilst the Australian Government has a "Do Not Travel" to Qatar (and UAE), you are on your own without effective travel insurance if you get stuck for any reason there whilst on transit.

Absolutely, no insurance if war is ongoing at time of flights .... hence why I would need to be able to cancel flights on good terms i.e. no fees or very small fee or swap out for dates in future etc... effectively a free/cheap "option"

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Whilst the Australian Government has a "Do Not Travel" to Qatar (and UAE), you are on your own without effective travel insurance if you get stuck for any reason there whilst on transit.

It seems plenty people travel without travel insurance as it is, or take risks which invalidate their insurance (scooter riding in Bali for example), get drunk, take part in dangerous activities such as quad biking, or simply have pre-existing conditions which are too expensive to cover.

A brief transit in the ME probably isn’t high on the list of concerns?

 

[kpc]

It seems plenty people travel without travel insurance as it is, or take risks which invalidate their insurance (scooter riding in Bali for example), get drunk, take part in dangerous activities such as quad biking, or simply have pre-existing conditions which are too expensive to cover.

A brief transit in the ME probably isn’t high on the list of concerns?

And when they get into trouble, they start "Gofund me" pages when the Australian Government refuses financial assistance

 

[Pushka]

Absolutely, no insurance if war is ongoing at time of flights .... hence why I would need to be able to cancel flights on good terms i.e. no fees or very small fee or swap out for dates in future etc... effectively a free/cheap "option"

There's no insurance for war if already travelling and it erupts suddenly which is pretty poor. Hardly a known event at time of commencement.

 

[Saab34]

Insurers would probably go broke if they needed to cover wars, especially the Middle East, talking millions of people. They won’t have the funds behind them to look after everyone.

 

[Brissy1]

There's no insurance for war if already travelling and it erupts suddenly which is pretty poor. Hardly a known event at time of commencement.

Yes. Policies vary of course but the 3 I've activated (cr cards) all exclude any Act of war, unsurprisingly .But if say you have medical expenses unrelated to war then are you covered? Sharing my readings of pds, my bolding,

1. Macquarie (Chubb) - No. No coverage for anything in "Do not Travel" level countries. Doesn't specify "Reconsider your need to travel" level countries so presumably ok there. (P54 1. i.)

2. St George (Allianz) - unclear but arguably Yes. Exclusion is if "your claim arises because you...did not follow..."Do not Travel" or "Reconsider your need to travel" levels. So it might come down to the reason for the smart traveller warning, if you're in hospital because of war shrapnel or because of normal medical condition. (P31)

3. MyCard (Allianz) - unclear but arguably Yes. Exclusion is if "expense caused by or arising from...you not following advice..." from Smart Traveller DnT or Reconsider... (P14)

Unfortunately (?) I'm not a lawyer but would probably need one to argue the case.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Yes. Policies vary of course but the 3 I've activated (cr cards) all exclude any Act of war, unsurprisingly .But if say you have medical expenses unrelated to war then are you covered? Sharing my readings of pds, my bolding,

1. Macquarie (Chubb) - No. No coverage for anything in "Do not Travel" level countries. Doesn't specify "Reconsider your need to travel" level countries so presumably ok there. (P54 1. i.)

2. St George (Allianz) - unclear but arguably Yes. Exclusion is if "your claim arises because you...did not follow..."Do not Travel" or "Reconsider your need to travel" levels. So it might come down to the reason for the smart traveller warning, if you're in hospital because of war shrapnel or because of normal medical condition. (P31)

3. MyCard (Allianz) - unclear but arguably Yes. Exclusion is if "expense caused by or arising from...you not following advice..." from Smart Traveller DnT or Reconsider... (P14)

Unfortunately (?) I'm not a lawyer but would probably need one to argue the case.

Two levels to this.

No cover for anything if you go to a ‘do not travel’ country (or ‘reconsider’ for some policies). Even if unrelated to the ‘do not travel’ reason.

Separately there’s a general exclusion for anything related to wars (and several other things).

If you happened to be in a ‘safe’ (permitted) country at the commencement of war, and had an unrelated injury (for example you missed a step and fell over), you’d be covered for the medical. But not if hit by shrapnel.

You wouldn’t be covered for flight delays and cancellations if caused by the outbreak of hostilities.

 

[Pushka]

Yes. Policies vary of course but the 3 I've activated (cr cards) all exclude any Act of war, unsurprisingly .But if say you have medical expenses unrelated to war then are you covered? Sharing my readings of pds, my bolding,

1. Macquarie (Chubb) - No. No coverage for anything in "Do not Travel" level countries. Doesn't specify "Reconsider your need to travel" level countries so presumably ok there. (P54 1. i.)

2. St George (Allianz) - unclear but arguably Yes. Exclusion is if "your claim arises because you...did not follow..."Do not Travel" or "Reconsider your need to travel" levels. So it might come down to the reason for the smart traveller warning, if you're in hospital because of war shrapnel or because of normal medical condition. (P31)

3. MyCard (Allianz) - unclear but arguably Yes. Exclusion is if "expense caused by or arising from...you not following advice..." from Smart Traveller DnT or Reconsider... (P14)

Unfortunately (?) I'm not a lawyer but would probably need one to argue the case.

But even travelling into a ‘safe’ (ok to enter) country I don’t think you are covered if war breaks out while there.

 

[AuSammy]

But even travelling into a ‘safe’ (ok to enter) country I don’t think you are covered if war breaks out while there.

Not even war - usually any form of civil unrest or terrorism

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But even travelling into a ‘safe’ (ok to enter) country I don’t think you are covered if war breaks out while there.

Not for anything war related. But you would be covered if you slipped and fell.

The exclusion is almost always written along the lines that they will not cover any loss or damage arising from… any act of war, whether war has been declared or not.

So if you are in country at the time, anything which arises outside of an ‘act of war’ would be covered.

If you are not yet ‘in country’, the exclusion of ‘do not travel’ or ‘reconsider travel’ would apply.

 

[RooFlyer]

Meet a French couple today on my cruise who live in Abu Dhabi. I naturally asked if things were getting back to some sort of normal.

They said they lived on the Corniche near the Presidential palace and that the war hasn’t affected them much at all. Doing things they always normally did ( going out, shopping etc). Just the occasional missile going overhead and an alarm going off . A case of ‘war? What war?’. I’m certain they were quite serious.

 

[Brissy1]

Two levels to this.

No cover for anything if you go to a ‘do not travel’ country (or ‘reconsider’ for some policies). Even if unrelated to the ‘do not travel’ reason.

Separately there’s a general exclusion for anything related to wars (and several other things).

If you happened to be in a ‘safe’ (permitted) country at the commencement of war, and had an unrelated injury (for example you missed a step and fell over), you’d be covered for the medical. But not if hit by shrapnel.

You wouldn’t be covered for flight delays and cancellations if caused by the outbreak of hostilities.

Yes in my 3 policies all exclude Acts of war.

If an event not related to war (toothache) occurs in a "do not travel"country Macquarie ins. clearly states, nothing is covered. However other PDS are different, stating an expense is not covered if "caused by or arising from" travelling to do not travel advice countries. So if the expense (say dentistry) is not "caused by or arising" from travelling against that advice, isn't it not excluded?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Yes in my 3 policies all exclude Acts of war.

If an event not related to war (toothache) occurs in a "do not travel"country Macquarie ins. clearly states, nothing is covered. However other PDS are different, stating an expense is not covered if "caused by or arising from" travelling to do not travel advice countries. So if the expense (say dentistry) is not "caused by or arising" from travelling against that advice, isn't it not excluded?

Good question, and you’d need to read the entire PDS, with how the exclusions are applied either generally or to each section.

Which policy in particular are you looking at? Would be interesting to have a look.

 

[arrow]

Good question, and you’d need to read the entire PDS, with how the exclusions are applied either generally or to each section.

Which policy in particular are you looking at? Would be interesting to have a look.

The exclusions where there’s ambiguity or a second order claim are often drafted in the favour of the insurer, so you need to be extra careful

 

[Brissy1]

Good question, and you’d need to read the entire PDS, with how the exclusions are applied either generally or to each section.

Which policy in particular are you looking at? Would be interesting to have a look.

This is the StGeorge one

https://www.mycard.com.au/content/dam/mycard/documents/terms-and-conditions/complimentary-insurance-policy-information-booklet.pdf

P.15 para 6. to be read in conjunction with (my bold) the preamble on p. 14 "we do not cover you for any loss, damage or expense caused by or arising from: "

 

[MEL_Traveller]

This is the StGeorge one

https://www.mycard.com.au/content/dam/mycard/documents/terms-and-conditions/complimentary-insurance-policy-information-booklet.pdf

P.15 para 6. to be read in conjunction with (my bold) the preamble on p. 14 "we do not cover you for any loss, damage or expense caused by or arising from: "

I think on the ordinary reading they will not pay any claim arising from you not following advice to ‘not travel’. If you didn’t travel, you might still have got a sore tooth, but that wouldn’t be covered by TI.

‘Not following advice’ to ‘not travel’ might sound like a double negative, but it distinguishes from cases where you might be able to claim because you *did* follow advice to not travel (for example if there was a natural disaster). In those cases you might get back your cancellation fees etc.

 

[Seat0B]

Meet a French couple today on my cruise who live in Abu Dhabi. I naturally asked if things were getting back to some sort of normal.

They said they lived on the Corniche near the Presidential palace and that the war hasn’t affected them much at all. Doing things they always normally did ( going out, shopping etc). Just the occasional missile going overhead and an alarm going off . A case of ‘war? What war?’. I’m certain they were quite serious.

This is kind of the attitude that Seat Son has too. I personally think they are drinking the KoolAid. Any conversation that includes “they are intercepting most of the missiles anyway” or “those drones are a few k from my place” does not make me feel better

 

[tradingup]

EU261 covers your entire journey including any connections.

So if QR cancels the SOF-DOH they need to re-route you to SYD.

EU261 only kicks in once QR cancels the flight… so could be as little as 24-48 hours before departure.

In theory I suppose they could re-route you on EK if EK was still flying, or even on something like Saudis via JED and SIN/KUL to SYD. You’d hope they wouldn’t fly you via a ‘do not travel’ hub, but I haven’t read anything definitive on that situation.

QR’s ‘regular’ rebooking policy seems a little more generous and may allow the re-routing on a select number of airlines, and possibly further in advance than 24-48 hours. But they seem to have withdrawn this from their latest travel advisory? (now offering a choice of two date changes or refund).

If your flight is cancelled ex EU, research some options avoiding the gulf. When QR gives you options to re-route, feel free to suggest the routing you have found.

As far as I am aware, the travel warnings have no strict legal effect to operate as a ban on travel - they are “advisory” notices to Australians that the Australian government does not regard it as prudent to travel to these locations. So I don’t think QR would have any legal obligation to avoid flying Australian pax through Doha because of a DNT warning. They may perhaps feel a commercial or PR obligation to re route you. By comparison, closed airspace does have legal effect - if a country closes its airspace then it is not legal to fly in contravention of that airspace closure.

Your pickle is that the airspace is now at least partially open, but for very sensible reasons, you want to change your journey to either avoid Doha altogether or shorten the stay there. And the airlines are tending to leave cancellations to the last minute - 24 to 48 hrs is common at the moment. I feel like your best bet financially at the moment is to sit tight and wait to see if your flights re cancelled by QR. This gives you a lot of options as described by @MEL_Traveller in their post above.

I know this does not give you much peace of mind, so you might feel it’s worth booking an alternative set of flights home, with good cancellation conditions, if you have the finances to do so. If things settle down and you want to go via Doha, then cancel these Plan B flights and be happy to pay the fees as cheap war insurance. If QR does not cancel but you still don’t want to fly to Doha, what would it cost you to cancel your existing flights? But it would be good to have a Plan B in place as last minute scrambling for flights is exhausting and expensive as we found out when rearranging flights for our daughter last week.

And of course, your travel insurance won’t cover you while you are in a DNT area.

I hope it works out for you. Post again to update us all please.

Thank you for your replies MEL_Traveller and SeatOB. I appreciated your advice.

Sorry for the delayed reply post, but in the interim I have been on a two week Mediterranean Cruise and only had internet access at some port stops on my travel sim. Happily, I have just arrived safely home - five days earlier than planned, being one less night in Sofia and four in Doha. This is how my trip home evolved.

I decided I needed a Plan B and to pro-actively book new flights home, since the WAR was continuing and expanding. The cruise finished in Rome and I had a stand alone flight booked to Sofia on Bulgaria Air, although I was prepared to abandon this flight if necessary to find a re-route home.

After checking out various airlines and alternative routes home, I found Turkish Airways to be my best option. Business Class flights out of Istanbul were massively more expensive than flying out of Sofia, so the Bulgaria Air flight stayed in the itinerary. The fly through to Sydney premium was also well in effect, and luckily found a lone QFF J redemption flight on MH out of KL and was able to fit this with a TA flight from Sofia to KL, allowing two nights accommodation as a buffer for any flight delays. At this time my Qatar flight dates did not yet qualify for free cancellation.

Subsequently, Qatar extended the free cancellation period and I requested a refund online. The Qatar online chat was disabled and contact was only by phone... I did not have the time or resources while travelling to spend hours trying to phone Qatar and pursue enforcing EU 261.

When I had data access, I kept a watch on airfare pricing and availability and three days before my new flights home a couple of seats appeared at a much more reasonable cost and I was able to extend my existing TA flight to fly all the way to Sydney. The QFF redemption flight and accommodation were then cancelled.

As is regularly noted on this forum, being flexible with flight options and dates enabled me to achieve the best possible (elevated) airfare home. Flying out of Sofia on 1 April was more than 50% less than the equivalent flights on surrounding days.

I had also booked all accommodation (except the cruise) with free cancellation up to a certain time and worked within this timeframe.

Now waiting on the Qatar refund which will also include a FX loss due to the AUD appreciation since the airfare was purchased.

For those who are considering booking their own Plan B flights, there is considerable movement in both availability and pricing, in short time frames.

 

[RooFlyer]

For those who are considering booking their own Plan B flights, there is considerable movement in both availability and pricing, in short time frames.

I, or rather my travel agent found similar when I was booking my own plan B on TK about a month ago, related up thread.

Ex MXP to MEL, I could’ve saved $2000 if I could’ve flown a day before, on the same itinerary. Unfortunately, I couldn’t take advantage of that, but as you say keeping flexible opens up some opportunities.