Losing QFF points and calling in the media

[JohnK]

I am surprised that there are still people who do not have a Woolworths rewards card attached to QF.

Why? I prefer to get the $$discounts rather than QFF points.

 

[serfty]

Why? I prefer to get the $$discounts rather than QFF points.

It depends on what you value them at; for me 870 QFF points are worth more than $10, for SWMBO it about the $$. So she got $110 off shops in December while I picked up some points.

 

[rogerkambah]

As someone who has 'battled' (to use a cliche ) for the last 2 years I kept well up with our family QFF and AA points balances, finances, share trading and other deals. It kept me from thinking much about the cancer situation (which was grave when diagnosed), but I can understand that some people would think of this as quite banal and not bother about it until a crisis occurred - in this instance the loss of points.

AA sent me emails about the pending expiry of points so I had to respond to that.

I lost a few free accommodation nights with a booking agency through being unable to use them. Explained the situation but 'rules is rules'. I knew the rules when I joined so cie la vie.

I lost my qf gold status and also my silver status through being unable to fly but I've churned several ccs for both self and wife so not all is lost.

 

[JohnK]

It depends on what you value them at; for me 870 QFF points are worth more than $10...

It also depends on how quickly you can earn points to do anything useful with them.

I can generate around 120,000 QFF points/year. Very soon I'll be needing to purchase 2 airfares for 3 x returns to Thailand and 1 airfare for 6 x returns to Thailand. You can see how those points don't go very far.

The plan at this stage would be to pay for my airfares and my daughters airfares and use points for my wifes airfares where the appears to be some value as with 50% off awards but the fuel surcharges on Qantas are still very high.

What I won't be doing is running around collecting points for a baby to be travelling in business. So for now the $$ saved shopping seem much better value.

 

[RichardMEL]

Can you please arrange a flight for me using your points. No of course not under the rules. They have no value in this example.

They appear to have a value to you but it's not guaranteed it is only a promise to exchange them with you at the airlines discretion.

They have a perceived value based on a promise to pay.

I disagree with this.

While the "value" of points for the member who uses them will vary based on how they use them and what they get out of it (eg: 20 toasters or a F seat to LHR) that's "preceived value."

my 200k points will have a different "value" to me as it does to you based on use, earn(how easy etc), if I can get the reward (seat, upgrade, partner award or gift card)...

BUT

those points, being the "currency" of QF Loyalty, have a value that is not perceived, but is set within QF and is known to them. That is their liability on their books at a specific value, and what stems from that is the pricing that they then put on goods and service using those points to reach a desired profit point, and those will vary based on the selling price of various vendors to them (as in, the merchant rate or wholesale price if you will) of that Good or Service - if it's a QF F seat, a partner award, a hotel room, a gift card or toaster etc....

And, in turn, QF on sells points to others like banks and they obviously do that at a profit to them, So those sign on bonus promotions and"earning power" of your credit card is again based on a agreed price between QF and the bank. That's not preceived, that's a real cost.

from the outside, without knowing any of these various deals and values we can not ascribe a set value to a QF point, but there is one and that's not perceived at all. By simple accountancy laws they *have* to have a value.

IMHO.

 

[RichardMEL]

Checking emails? A 73 year old may not have the capacity to read emails on a tablet in hospital. Nor be particularly concerned about Qantas points offers (the specific email notification seems to be new).

Sure, but the calls that QF should have called or something are ridiculously over the top.

The couple did NOT deny that QF notified them.. they said (paraphrasing article) that they did not see the email in time.

QF met their end of the T&C by notifying the member of impending points expiry. They can't know that the member won't read it for one reason or another. Maybe they read it and forgot. Maybe they just don't care. None of those are QF's fault.

I mean where do you draw the line? Teenagers allagedly don't "do" email these days, just text and snapchat etc so what we're supposed to say oh well gee that dude wasn't tweeted DM by QF and lost their points so yeah let's be understanding.

QF are not mind readers or can know what any one member is doing. They sent a notification which is the reasonable thing to do. The Inaction of the customer (forwhatever reason) is not their responsibilitty

... and again it's not like QF just responded with "tough luck" they offered a reasonable challenge here.

The bashers seem to just ignore that part and just want to bash. That drives me crazy.

Offering an option to get the points back vs a flat "no way" are two VERY different situations.

The couple didn't like what QF offered.. that's their right, but let's remember that QF absolutely could have said, per the T&C, "tough luck"

I personally get annoyed at *some* people's sense of entitlement and well they don't get what they expect and jump up and down about how unfair it all is... this, imho, is not one of those situations. Is it annoying to have to do a challenge? yes, no doubt. Should a 73 y.o. be worrying about this stuff? Well.. let me put it this way... if they are worrying about 150k QF points that they presumably want to use for trips or something, then I think they have the capacity to deal with a challenge.[/QUOTE]

 

[rock86]

I disagree with this.

While the "value" of points for the member who uses them will vary based on how they use them and what they get out of it (eg: 20 toasters or a F seat to LHR) that's "preceived value."

my 200k points will have a different "value" to me as it does to you based on use, earn(how easy etc), if I can get the reward (seat, upgrade, partner award or gift card)...

BUT

those points, being the "currency" of QF Loyalty, have a value that is not perceived, but is set within QF and is known to them. That is their liability on their books at a specific value, and what stems from that is the pricing that they then put on goods and service using those points to reach a desired profit point, and those will vary based on the selling price of various vendors to them (as in, the merchant rate or wholesale price if you will) of that Good or Service - if it's a QF F seat, a partner award, a hotel room, a gift card or toaster etc....

And, in turn, QF on sells points to others like banks and they obviously do that at a profit to them, So those sign on bonus promotions and"earning power" of your credit card is again based on a agreed price between QF and the bank. That's not preceived, that's a real cost.

from the outside, without knowing any of these various deals and values we can not ascribe a set value to a QF point, but there is one and that's not perceived at all. By simple accountancy laws they *have* to have a value.

IMHO.

Spot on, AASB 15 now provides the framework which set's out how customer loyalty programs are to be treated (although it is in line with how they already were treated).

If anyone wants to see the real value & how much revenue QF generated and what the deferred revenue liability is, it is clearly visible on their annual report.

 

[RichardMEL]

additional point to the subjective "value" from our perspective (or if you like perceived value) - it is so subjective and contextual to each member IMHO. Back some years ago when AJ grounded the airline and there was talk of QF going bust, QFF haing no value etc in some segments of the media, a friend of mine proudly informed me she redeemed all of her 190k odd points for woolies vouchers.

I was, as any member here would no doubt understand and possibly agree, appalled at this - so to ME her redemption was poor.. so her use of points had a poor perceived value. To HER though, she got what she wanted - some woolies vouchers and piece of mind so her perceived value was high. Of course I told her I wasn't concerned still earning and all the rest. We haven't discussed it sine, but I imagine she may have some regrets about her decision in hindsight.

but to HER at that time... total value.

Me? If I really thought the writing was on the wall I'd prob use 190k points of say EK F to europe or something like that. I am sure many others reading would use 190k points on different things that they consider of value.. for example I imagine JohnK would use those points on redemptions in Y to BKK.

All different "value" propoisitions but also very subjective

Of course this is a major tangent to the thread, so.. sorry about that

 

[rock86]

additional point to the subjective "value" from our perspective (or if you like perceived value) - it is so subjective and contextual to each member IMHO. Back some years ago when AJ grounded the airline and there was talk of QF going bust, QFF haing no value etc in some segments of the media, a friend of mine proudly informed me she redeemed all of her 190k odd points for woolies vouchers.

I was, as any member here would no doubt understand and possibly agree, appalled at this - so to ME her redemption was poor.. so her use of points had a poor perceived value. To HER though, she got what she wanted - some woolies vouchers and piece of mind so her perceived value was high. Of course I told her I wasn't concerned still earning and all the rest. We haven't discussed it sine, but I imagine she may have some regrets about her decision in hindsight.

but to HER at that time... total value.

Me? If I really thought the writing was on the wall I'd prob use 190k points of say EK F to europe or something like that. I am sure many others reading would use 190k points on different things that they consider of value.. for example I imagine JohnK would use those points on redemptions in Y to BKK.

All different "value" propoisitions but also very subjective

Of course this is a major tangent to the thread, so.. sorry about that

That's a good point @RichardMEL

Even though in an accounting sense, loyalty program have a finite value. The participants of these programs will have a completely different goal for what they want to achieve out of them, for QFF some people are happy to redeem them for Y seats, some will (shudder) buy items of the Qantas store, some redeem gift cards etc. So, just because redeeming points for premium travel represents the best 'bang for you point' it doesn't necessarily mean it the best use of points for every individuals circumstances.

On a side-note, QF would LOVE individuals who redeem their points on gift card/store purchases, as they're making a mark-up on both the sale of QFF points plus the redemption of the actual item.

 

[burmans]

By simple accountancy laws they *have* to have a value.

True but accountancy also recognises zero as a vale, which in most people terms effectively means exactly the same as "no value" if we ignore those who are pedantic about it.

 

[RichardMEL]

QF points do not have zero value to the airline.

To some people out here in consumer land they may have zero "value" specially if you're trying to redeem a reward and can never find availability, and that's your criteria.. but does not mean they have zero value to the airline, or to be specific, QF Loyalty.

 

[Hvr]

QF points do not have zero value to the airline.

Nor to a divorce lawyer.
Frequent Flyer Points and Divorce

There have been cases where the judge has assigned a value to the points as part of the settlement.

• The Australian
• 12:00AM June 20, 2016

In a case from last year, Tuckson v Elsey, Federal Circuit Court judge John Coker noted with interest that “both the applicant and the respondent sought to have them (the points) included at the very least as a financial resource available to (them)”.

While he couldn’t put a specific value on those points, “they certainly do have value when used by one or other of the parties, either to upgrade the class of air travel that one or other might engage in or to be utilised for the purchases of products”.

“It would seem impossible to actually attempt to quantify them,” Judge Coker noted, and so he simply split them along with the rest of the property, with 287,850 Qantas frequent-flyer points going to the wife.

 

[oz_mark]

The T&Cs of the program are that they have no monetary value, and can't be converted to cash. But that's a different thing to saying they have no value.

 

[BAM1748]

When we all lost points in the Ansett failure, how many people here put in an unsecured creditors claim?

 

[rock86]

When we all lost points in the Ansett failure, how many people here put in an unsecured creditors claim?

Then on the flip side, QF would be putting in an unsecured creditor claim for any company they sell points to upon that companies failure.

They may not be redeemable for cash nor a member considered a creditor, but that doesn't ultimately mean they do not have a value, as QF's shareholders would certainly disagree.

 

[RichardMEL]

The T&Cs of the program are that they have no monetary value, and can't be converted to cash. But that's a different thing to saying they have no value.

I accept the "cannot be converted to cash' but please reference the no monetary value part?

Again, and I can't stress this enough, internal to QF Loyalty points absolutely have a dollar (well cent, or fraction thereof ) value.

And remember, when one redeems an award, specially for something like a toaster or a gift cart, in some sense it *is* a conversion to cash.. or at least the monetary value of that product, as sold to QF Loyalty by the vendor.

Now none of that is transparent to the customer, and it's true I can't say to QF I'd like to convert my 1 million QF points to $2.50, but that doesn't mean they do not have a value to QF.

I am not sure why this is so difficult to grasp

 

[BAM1748]

Then on the flip side, QF would be putting in an unsecured creditor claim for any company they sell points to upon that companies failure.

They may not be redeemable for cash nor a member considered a creditor, but that doesn't ultimately mean they do not have a value, as QF's shareholders would certainly disagree.

That's what I thought, no one.

 

[rock86]

That's what I thought, no one.

What?

 

[Flying Fox]

When we all lost points in the Ansett failure, how many people here put in an unsecured creditors claim?

I considered doing so but given the list of priority creditors and the amount they got paid/$; I figured this would not be worth the effort. Its not that I considered the points to be without value.

 

[BAM1748]

What?

Only that I asked a question and you responded to me but didn't answer, so only can assume you either you didn't have a loss of points or they are of no value.

Matt