Life Silver Recognition? Nope accused of made up crime and threatened with arrest..

[Pushka]

I wasn't correcting you, roamer started the whole things with heart attack, I followed on, but I thought since we were well and truly verging off topic we may as well be precise.

I don't doubt that at all if people have lost consciousness, stoped breathing, have no heartbeat it would be very useful, but that would have been in an urban context where medical treatment is imminent? I don't have the education to have a highly technical debate, but would you perform CPR on someone having a heart attack who was conscious, breathing, with a beating heart I wouldn't...

I’m not a Dr but the First Aid Training I’ve had is to check for a heart beat first before doing any CPR. If the person was conscious and breathing then as a lay person don’t do it.

 

[rikkitikkitavi]

... and you are going to argue with a Dr over the value of CPR?

A Dr of grid iron? I'm new here so I don't know everyone's life story yet, so I will assume DrRon is a medical doctor who works in emergency medicine or cardiology. Obviously assuming this, DrRon knows a lot more than me and I would defer to them in any emergency situation.

However doctors disagree on things, if you do CPR training often you will see the routine often changes over time as the ARC changes their mind on what constitutes best practice. I remember at one stage rescue breaths were removed, then there was talk of compression only CPR. Personally if I am the first reposnder I will just follow the training I received from doctors and paramedics (don't give CPR to conscious breathing people), and if a DrRon comes by and wants to take over that's AOK.

 

[rikkitikkitavi]

Perhaps an explanation?

I think he is having a go at QANTAS because it was a government shelterted workshop, and now it is a QANGO sheltered workshop. He also doesn't seem to like the CEO.

 

[FlamingHedgehog]

Perhaps an explanation?

The Qantas Sale Act (revised 2014) basically means the airline is no longer goverment owned instead it's just 51% meddling.
Until Qantas breaks it's government shackles it will continue to suffer from governmentium. Joyce is a vocalist of this issue but isn't going to rock the boat too much fearing his massive salary wrought.

As of 5 pm AEDT 29 October 2011, when Joyce The <redacted> left me stranded and cost the country a small fortune with his pathetic and childish behaviour, I have zero time for Joyce and for Qantas whist they retain him.
This controversial grounding of the Qantas fleet showed the action has increased negative public perception of the airline yet at the same time Joyce's remuneration was increased 71 per cent from $2.92 million to $5.01 million and he was granted 1.7 million Qantas shares ($4 million) under a long-term incentive plan. He reportedly commented that his salary was "conservative". Those shares were worth $18.4 million in 2017... and how many employees were sacked to pay for that?

While Joyces' pockets bulge the staff numbers have dropped and the remaining have to fight for ever dollar.
Airbus A380 heavy work was going to Lufthansa Technik at its facilities in the Philippines but the new $40 miliion A380 engineering facility will change that.. Pity it's in Los Angeles..


The Spirit Of Australia (all 49% of it...)

 

[Pushka]

A Dr of grid iron? I'm new here so I don't know everyone's life story yet, so I will assume DrRon is a medical doctor who works in emergency medicine or cardiology. Obviously assuming this, DrRon knows a lot more than me and I would defer to them in any emergency situation.

However doctors disagree on things, if you do CPR training often you will see the routine often changes over time as the ARC changes their mind on what constitutes best practice. I remember at one stage rescue breaths were removed, then there was talk of compression only CPR. Personally if I am the first reposnder I will just follow the training I received from doctors and paramedics (don't give CPR to conscious breathing people), and if a DrRon comes by and wants to take over that's AOK.

That is very wise not to argue with Drron . There are quite a few Medicos in here and drron is the only one with a name that bears any resemblance to one. Beware

 

[nlagalle]

I think you misunderstood the sale act. The government doesn’t own any of it, the shareholders do. The cap is to prevent overseas ownership.

As someone who was stranded in London when this happened I applauded his stance. It put a stop to the pathetic union phantom strikes that had caused me no end of grief in the months prior.

Seems you have an axe to grind with the CEO, but his wage and remuneration is decided by the board and his share value is merely reflective of the current share price (which incidentally is nearly double what it was when he took over as CEO). The fact the airline is performing so well atm is a clear indication that the right moves were made..

Also with only 12 A380’s, they were never going to be serviced here, the cost is too great. Given there are only 3-4 facilities in the world doing it shows it’s not going to be economically viable here.

The Qantas Sale Act (revised 2014) basically means the airline is no longer goverment owned instead it's just 51% meddling.
Until Qantas breaks it's government shackles it will continue to suffer from governmentium. Joyce is a vocalist of this issue but isn't going to rock the boat too much fearing his massive salary wrought.

As of 5 pm AEDT 29 October 2011, when Joyce The Halfwit left me stranded and cost the country a small fortune with his pathetic and childish behaviour, I have zero time for Joyce and for Qantas whist they retain him.
This controversial grounding of the Qantas fleet showed the action has increased negative public perception of the airline yet at the same time Joyce's remuneration was increased 71 per cent from $2.92 million to $5.01 million and he was granted 1.7 million Qantas shares ($4 million) under a long-term incentive plan. He reportedly commented that his salary was "conservative". Those shares were worth $18.4 million in 2017... and how many employees were sacked to pay for that?

While Joyces' pockets bulge the staff numbers have dropped and the remaining have to fight for ever dollar.
Airbus A380 heavy work was going to Lufthansa Technik at its facilities in the Philippines but the new $40 miliion A380 engineering facility will change that.. Pity it's in Los Angeles..


The Spirit Of Australia (all 49% of it...)

 

[RichardMEL]

He then turned on his heels and stormed past me so I reached out and said "Hey...wait a minute" and touched his sleeve. With that he threatened me with arrest and eviction from the flight and carried on his tirade with venom. I sat down and was unfairly humiliated by this mans theatrics (think Cam from "Modern Family" in a hissy fit).

Up to this point I was with you. Unfortunately you touched a crewmember. Yes, I know there's a "brush of the sleeve" and "grabbing of someone's arm" but either way you touched them, and technically, could have been seen to be obstructing them in their duties. I totally understand the motivation, given the situation, the smell, the attitude you'd just had and so on, but touching a crewmember like that is not cool, and I hate to say this I have no problem with the threat to arrest, because that's absolutely within their rights - at least to have an issue with being touched and a manner. Your mildly stated "Hey...wait a minute" sleeve touching may have been construed and felt very differently by an obviously harried individual. Perhaps they shouldn't have threatened arrest per se, but they would have grounds to have action taken if it was serious enough. They may have felt your attitude was undly agressive too and felt intimidated.

No. I was not there. Howeer it's a pretty clear rule and quite apart from that an invasion of their personal space in that respect.

I'd also wager the FA was concerned with the bigger picture in terms of if we move this couple, then everyone else for the next 5 rows will want out of that smelly area. It sounds ghastly (I've been on a flight where someone threw up in the exit row area right ahead of where I was seated on a UA 747 and the crew used coffee beans to try and diffuse the smell... it was.... mostly successful). I'm not in any way saying the "you're being selfish" comment was at all warranted.. I think he blurted out his thought that he clearly shouldn't have. I'm just trying to see it from "the other side" of someone responsible to a whole cabin of people equally affected by the unfortunate situation.

At least the CSM eventually seemed to understand and be helpful about it, or at least reasonable from your description. That's a good thing.

I also hope the unfortunate pax who was so ill recovered with help. Much better that happened on the ground in DXB and not 6 hours in to a 13 hour flight across the ocean!

my 2 cents.

 

[mannej]

It is hard to make a complete judgement without being present, but I can see how physical contact can be misconstrued.

 

[leaving on a jet plane]

Up to this point I was with you. Unfortunately you touched a crewmember. Yes, I know there's a "brush of the sleeve" and "grabbing of someone's arm" but either way you touched them, and technically, could have been seen to be obstructing them in their duties. I totally understand the motivation, given the situation, the smell, the attitude you'd just had and so on, but touching a crewmember like that is not cool, and I hate to say this I have no problem with the threat to arrest, because that's absolutely within their rights - at least to have an issue with being touched and a manner. Your mildly stated "Hey...wait a minute" sleeve touching may have been construed and felt very differently by an obviously harried individual. Perhaps they shouldn't have threatened arrest per se, but they would have grounds to have action taken if it was serious enough. They may have felt your attitude was undly agressive too and felt intimidated.

No. I was not there. Howeer it's a pretty clear rule and quite apart from that an invasion of their personal space in that respect.

I'd also wager the FA was concerned with the bigger picture in terms of if we move this couple, then everyone else for the next 5 rows will want out of that smelly area. It sounds ghastly (I've been on a flight where someone threw up in the exit row area right ahead of where I was seated on a UA 747 and the crew used coffee beans to try and diffuse the smell... it was.... mostly successful). I'm not in any way saying the "you're being selfish" comment was at all warranted.. I think he blurted out his thought that he clearly shouldn't have. I'm just trying to see it from "the other side" of someone responsible to a whole cabin of people equally affected by the unfortunate situation.

At least the CSM eventually seemed to understand and be helpful about it, or at least reasonable from your description. That's a good thing.

I also hope the unfortunate pax who was so ill recovered with help. Much better that happened on the ground in DXB and not 6 hours in to a 13 hour flight across the ocean!

my 2 cents.

As I said, I am in the customer service business and I am a qualified Sales trainer and I know a gross over reaction when I see one. Had I have been aggressive or curt then that would have different. I also waited until he was by the galley at the head of the cabin section and while he was (like all of us) just waiting for the luggage to be unloaded (the ill PAX had been evacuated by then). He was not in the thick of a crisis at that moment...far from it. You are right though he reacted like someone who was threatened ...but without due cause. If this guy lost his cool and over reacted to a passenger calmly asking a legitimate question he has no right to be in a job that requires ice water running through your veins in an emergency. If it was company policy to treat PAX like that I think I would have encountered it many times in the past. ...and yes I know you were not there but this was so poor its enough to make me question 35+ years of loyalty to the flying kangaroo!

 

[juddles]

...... Joyce is a vocalist of this issue but isn't going to rock the boat too much fearing his massive salary wrought.......

flaming, can you please rewrite this sentence to help me understand it.

 

[RichardMEL]

As I said, I am in the customer service business and I am a qualified Sales trainer and I know a gross over reaction when I see one. Had I have been aggressive or curt then that would have different. I also waited until he was by the galley at the head of the cabin section and while he was (like all of us) just waiting for the luggage to be unloaded (the ill PAX had been evacuated by then). He was not in the thick of a crisis at that moment...far from it. You are right though he reacted like someone who was threatened ...but without due cause. If this guy lost his cool and over reacted to a passenger calmly asking a legitimate question he has no right to be in a job that requires ice water running through your veins in an emergency. If it was company policy to treat PAX like that I think I would have encountered it many times in the past. ...and yes I know you were not there but this was so poor its enough to make me question 35+ years of loyalty to the flying kangaroo!

With the greatest of sincere respect I would note that it is your view that he had no due cause to feel (or act like he felt) threatened and respond the way he did. Everyone is different and reacts differently. It's not that fair just because you feel you acted in an appropriate manner that he saw it differently.... Plus some people's notion or feelings of what is agressive or curt attitudes and behaviour can differ based on their own personal tolerance levels.

And I am not talking about calmly asking to be reseated. I am referering to the act of touching this crewmember and saying "wait a inute" - you may have felt it was fine, and probably to 80% of us would agree, but it takes two to tango, and at that point you clearly overstepped a line for him.

I'm NOT trying to attack you personally or disregard your stated experience in training and customer service, but by the same token not a lot of jobs out there equate to the pressures of being in a confined cabin with hundreds of other humans when you do not know how any one will react or what they could do next in a confined space.

And you're probably right, that individual, on that day at least, probably did not handle the situation well and was not at their best. Perhaps 90% of the rest of the time he's a great FA and nobody would have an issue. Who knows.

I would be very interested in the known pilots in the group making comment on this as it's their workplace too and how they may see the situation in terms of touching the crewmember on the arm and that aspect of it.

And finally, you'd question decades of loyalty to a company based on the actions of one or two employees? I think someone who decided to shift business on those grounds may not do business with terribly many companies then. Again, though it reads like it, I'm not trying to have a go at you personally (promise!) more a general observation.. because a lot of people post rants on facebook and similar about "airline X" (QF, JQ, CX, UA, BA etc etc etc etc) "I had a coughpy flight because.... .... and I'll never fly with you again!" - absolutely one's right to feel and act that way. absolutely... but in this world nobody is perfect and we can all have difficult customer service experiences (I just had a bad one with my vet today!).. so my point is more that.

 

[mannej]

As I said, I am in the customer service business and I am a qualified Sales trainer and I know a gross over reaction when I see one. Had I have been aggressive or curt then that would have different. I also waited until he was by the galley at the head of the cabin section and while he was (like all of us) just waiting for the luggage to be unloaded (the ill PAX had been evacuated by then). He was not in the thick of a crisis at that moment...far from it. You are right though he reacted like someone who was threatened ...but without due cause. If this guy lost his cool and over reacted to a passenger calmly asking a legitimate question he has no right to be in a job that requires ice water running through your veins in an emergency. If it was company policy to treat PAX like that I think I would have encountered it many times in the past. ...and yes I know you were not there but this was so poor its enough to make me question 35+ years of loyalty to the flying kangaroo!

With all due respect, we are only being provided with 1 side to this story. There are aspects of the confrontation (i.e touching the staff member) that raise flags as to the conduct on board, hence there has been the discussion about it.

 

[leaving on a jet plane]

With all due respect, we are only being provided with 1 side to this story. There are aspects of the confrontation (i.e touching the staff member) that raise flags as to the conduct on board, hence there has been the discussion about it.

Maybe if in the 30 mins between the poor lady being medivaced and the front door being closed an effort were made to bring on a cleaning crew to try to quell the stench things might have gone better! And by the way there were miraculously other seats in business that we were moved to once I had suggested that I may make a formal complaint about the FA that abused me. That and the unsolicited apologies of the more junior female FA leave me in no doubt this guy was out of control. I get that anyone who may be an FA or an airline employee is passionate to defend any FA (because lord know the public really can be challenging to even a saint at times) but this guy should not have had the lives of passengers in his hands in the event of an emergency.
And on that note I will sign off

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re the vomit - the choice is always there for the passenger to disembark. Depends how bad it actually is. No point arguing with the crew.

 

[RooFlyer]

The Qantas Sale Act (revised 2014) basically means the airline is no longer goverment owned instead it's just 51% meddling.
Until Qantas breaks it's government shackles it will continue to suffer from governmentium. Joyce is a vocalist of this issue but isn't going to rock the boat too much fearing his massive salary wrought.
<snip>
The Spirit Of Australia (all 49% of it...)

To be clear - the Australian gov'mint owns no part of Qantas; there may be a some government employee super funds with a shareholding, but there is zero control / 'meddling' from the gov'mint. There are controls on overseas shareholding, which curtails some freedom Qantas might otherwise have in respect to capital raising, but that hasn't stopped Qantas returning to substantial profit in the past few years.

I'm no bigger fan of Joyce than you are, but lets keep some factual basis to things.

 

[vandy]

Re the vomit - the choice is always there for the passenger to disembark. Depends how bad it actually is. No point arguing with the crew.

If you elect to make that choice, do you get a full refund?

 

[RichardMEL]

Maybe if in the 30 mins between the poor lady being medivaced and the front door being closed an effort were made to bring on a cleaning crew to try to quell the stench things might have gone better! And by the way there were miraculously other seats in business that we were moved to once I had suggested that I may make a formal complaint about the FA that abused me. That and the unsolicited apologies of the more junior female FA leave me in no doubt this guy was out of control. I get that anyone who may be an FA or an airline employee is passionate to defend any FA (because lord know the public really can be challenging to even a saint at times) but this guy should not have had the lives of passengers in his hands in the event of an emergency.
And on that note I will sign off

What they could have done and all that is hardly relevant to the issue of touching the crewmember... even if he had some sort of attitude for any number of reasons.

And sure I was not there to witness how this FA did his thing but to equate how you were personally handled(yes, that is a deliberate use of the word ) to their ability in an emergency isn't that fair. You have absolutely NO clue how they would perform in an evac or other emergency on board (bar the comment to "get the woman off").. Airline crews are trained and refreshed on a regular basis - yearly or maybe even more often I'm not sure - in emergency procedures, and they are tested and evaluated. This is not like telling a pax they are selfish or threatening you with arrest because you touched them.

You have every right to be disgrunted, and take your business elsewhere and hold a grudge if you wish, but I feel you've been unfair to that employee in terms of their ability to act in an emergency.

Anyway back to the concern about cleaning up the mess etc.. if they announced it would take an hour to get a cleaning crew to clear the area and thus the flight would be delayed.. I wonder how many pax would appreciate that vs the few in the area?

Seems to me if there were spare seats a proactive crew/CSM would have noted this and come to those most directly affected and offered the move. That didn't happen and you had to ask yourself.

That doesn't warrant either the rude response re being selfish, but nor does it warrant an act of touching the crew member.

IMHO.

 

[RichardMEL]

If you elect to make that choice, do you get a full refund?

hahah good one. That's a very interesting situation indeed. I think if pax demanded to disembark, due to the hassle to get bags etc offloaded, the CSM/crew would make a real effort to reseat them on the flight I reckon.

 

[drron]

Re the vomit - the choice is always there for the passenger to disembark. Depends how bad it actually is. No point arguing with the crew.

And how do you arrange your onward travel before you get off the plane.May find yourself delayed by days.
And what if the passenger has work or family commitments at the end of the flight.
Your suggestion is impractical.

 

[Pushka]

And how do you arrange your onward travel before you get off the plane.May find yourself delayed by days.
And what if the passenger has work or family commitments at the end of the flight.
Your suggestion is impractical.

I still think that regardless of the delays a cleaning crew should have been called in. The crew do not have to sit near it breathing it in, all the time. Maybe she had noro? The crew could not call that.