Leave entitlements discussion

[casanovawa]

I worked in the WA public sector for about 18 years and we got 13 week LSL every 7 years which wasn't too bad... Then we could purchase up to 10 weeks a year if it met the branch requirements... I took a redundancy last year so that meant i got paid out a certain amount of accrued LSL so i didn't lose that (about 4 years worth), think i lost about 3 months of sick leave entitlements???

But for the last several years I was travelling about 2-2.5 months a year using 4 weeks annual leave, judicious use of public holidays, extra hours from time worked and a bit of LSL leave being doled out...

When someone mentioned fraud at first I thought it was tht someone might eventually find out that person didn't really do anything once they were forced to go on leave, rather than doing anything nefarious...

To try and get down some of the large leave balances in our dept they did start making people take LSL, they also started to have XMAS/NYE period office shut downs that if yours wasn't a priority position you had to take leave which to me sucked because I hate travelling in the summer in Oz because i like warm weather and don't like going to the cold Northern Hemisphere so I was pretty unimpressed with that initiative.... Especially since I was using my leave entitlements and more every year...

 

[juddles]

Management of leave is a serious issue, and one that the complexities of are often underestimated by both staff and management.

This may shock some in the private sector, but at my last formal workplace (ten years ago in the Qld Police) we had a FULL TIME roster clerk who's sole job was to manage rosters and leave. At first I did not understand how it could be a full time job - just a moderately sized station with that "handful" of employees. But over time I realized that is was a very very difficult task indeed. It was obviously a workplace where we had to maintain 24 hr coverage, in a "business" with great surprises appearing every few days - from sudden and major events, to staff injuries, etc.

Other than balancing the impossible to keep sufficient staff on the road at every single moment, this poor sod had to also attempt this in a formal environment where aspects of EB agreements, etc etc had to be met.

Annual leave was difficult enough - everyone wants Christmas with their families, but in a 24/7 workplace you cannot ever make everyone happy. A thoroughly enlightening practice I saw at a few stations was the formation of "holiday leave" committees where you grabbed half a dozen normal staff and left them to sort out the mess of staff desires vs operational requirements. Was always a real eye-opener to all of us. It is not easy.

No workplace wants staff to over-accumulate rec leave (annual leave), but when you are faced with the reality that sending people on holidays tomorrow will mean no police cars on the road, no one to respond to emergencies, it all gets much murkier.

Long service leave is the same, but is a combo of a bigger liability, but also easier to kick forward due to daily pressures.

 

[cove]

We have had several instances over almost 40 years where a long serving staff member either has a heart or cancer health issue. We have chosen to continue paying personal leave regardless of the entitlements as we are a families owned business. Those staff members don’t need cash flow worries while they are being treated and we figure that each year we have enough staff turnover where those folks leaving forfeit their personal leave.

 

[Hvr]

Other than balancing the impossible to keep sufficient staff on the road at every single moment, this poor sod had to also attempt this in a formal environment where aspects of EB agreements, etc etc had to be met.

Not to mention training, promotion courses, transfers, resignations, staff conflicts (X cannot work with Y), skills etc.

Many years ago I worked in an area where I had approximately 180 workers to roster over a 20 hour per day, seven days a week, 365 days per year roster. A large number of workers wanted accommodation for a specific religious holiday. It took a huge amount of effort but most of them got the required time off.

When I was planning Christmas rosters they also wanted that time off. Too bad so sad, your colleagues worked extra and suffered significant inconvenience to look after you. This is the time for you to reciprocate.

They wouldn't, so I never attempted to accommodate their specific requirements again. What goes around comes around.

 

[nickykim]

Just for clarification - your employer can’t “remove” any of your excess annual leave balance (if you are employed in Australia). The employer can require you to submit a excess annual leave plan and make you stick to the plan and/or direct you to take annual leave for a particular period and/or, if allowed under your Enterprise Agreement, pay out a proportion of the excess annual leave IF you ask them to. The Fair Work Commission considers excess annual leave to be more than 8 weeks (equivalent for part time) and generally once the annual leave balance is reduced to six weeks or less, the Commissions consider there is no longer an excess leave balance.

 

[blackcat20]

Just for clarification - your employer can’t “remove” any of your excess annual leave balance (if you are employed in Australia). The employer can require you to submit a excess annual leave plan and make you stick to the plan and/or direct you to take annual leave for a particular period and/or, if allowed under your Enterprise Agreement, pay out a proportion of the excess annual leave IF you ask them to. The Fair Work Commission considers excess annual leave to be more than 8 weeks (equivalent for part time) and generally once the annual leave balance is reduced to six weeks or less, the Commissions consider there is no longer an excess leave balance.

Ok so its not really deleted, but you're forced onto leave and its deducted from your balance. Worst time of year for forced leave in my world (thats when grants are due) so you're most likely working regardless, therefore you do kinda lose the leave.

 

[Renato1]

When I was working, I'd take January and February off using annual leave and half pay long service leave and then, while edging towards retirement, I'd also take several months off during every second year for international vacations.

Not sure why some people here aren't taking leave, but instead letting it accumulate.
Is that job really so important?
Or is it really the most interesting thing in one's life?

I had a member of my staff who was in the latter category after a divorce, and I had to encourage/hassle him to take time off and I suggested taking a trip to Britain. He wound up doing it and came back saying it was great, and had had a fantastic time.
Regards,
Renato

 

[Buzzard]

I was in a job where we worked a 7 day fortnight. Add to that 13 days off for working a 42 hour week average, not may employees took a lot of leave. You had so much time off as it was. Our leave balances were sky high. With unlimited sick leave (that nobody abused) you didn't have to use annual leave if you needed to be off long term.
Best job I ever had, hopefully.

 

[JohnK]

I have around 4-6 weeks annual leave and 8 weeks long service leave which I plan on taking on 1st July when I retire.

I also purchase 2 weeks annual leave a year and take 2-3 weeks unpaid leave.

 

[Deleted member]

I was chatting to an old school friend some years ago who ran an aviation business in NZ, he was doing his books one year when it dawned on him that he was effectively paying a years wages (holiday pay) for staff leave and to him it felt like he was actually paying for 13 staff but only getting the benefit of 12. At that point he decided to sell,the business to a larger group, reckons it was the best days work he ever did.
Small business is severely disadvantaged in this (leave payments) regard I know that in my business, someone going on leave severely hamstrings productivity, our options are to hire temp staff (not ideal and often worse than going without) For this reason we need to become much larger more quickly which in some ways only exacerbates the problem, annual leave is already very generous in Australia.
Long service leave IMHO is a rort and should be done away with , but good luck with that idea :-(
Long service leave has its origins in colonial Australia (and other colonies) where government employees after a certain period of service away from home (England) were granted extended leave to allow for the long distance in travel and time to enjoy time with family back home.
I kinda get that, but in these modern days where 24 hours will get you to the other side of the world I think it’s a farce.
But hey, I’m just a small business owner, what would I know !

 

[cove]

You have to operate within the rules. If you cheat as a business owner you can be facing heavy penalties.If a business has to cheat to make a profit then it is time to stop trading.
What is annoying are the different rules and regulations in each State on long service leave.
We have funds invested to cover long service leave and annual leave that tends to earn about 5% to 7% a year so it doesn’t grow into a monster problem.
Each year we try hard to get our annual leave down to almost zero by the end of our slower months of trade.

 

[Deleted member]

You have to operate within the rules. If you cheat as a business owner you can be facing heavy penalties.If a business has to cheat to make a profit then it is time to stop trading.
What is annoying are the different rules and regulations in each State on long service leave.
We have funds invested to cover long service leave and annual leave that tends to earn about 5% to 7% a year so it doesn’t grow into a monster problem.
Each year we try hard to get our annual leave down to almost zero by the end of our slower months of trade.

That is how we too will deal with LSL. Investing a little each month in anticipation of someone going on LSL.
Not sure about the reference to cheating though. I may not like it, but I’m not cheating or dudding my staff.

 

[Denali]

I was chatting to an old school friend some years ago who ran an aviation business in NZ, he was doing his books one year when it dawned on him that he was effectively paying a years wages (holiday pay) for staff leave and to him it felt like he was actually paying for 13 staff but only getting the benefit of 12. At that point he decided to sell,the business to a larger group, reckons it was the best days work he ever did.
Small business is severely disadvantaged in this (leave payments) regard I know that in my business, someone going on leave severely hamstrings productivity, our options are to hire temp staff (not ideal and often worse than going without) For this reason we need to become much larger more quickly which in some ways only exacerbates the problem, annual leave is already very generous in Australia.
Long service leave IMHO is a rort and should be done away with , but good luck with that idea :-(
Long service leave has its origins in colonial Australia (and other colonies) where government employees after a certain period of service away from home (England) were granted extended leave to allow for the long distance in travel and time to enjoy time with family back home.
I kinda get that, but in these modern days where 24 hours will get you to the other side of the world I think it’s a farce.
But hey, I’m just a small business owner, what would I know !

Vic now allows LSL at 7yrs

My husband was on 18mths LSL before he retired (at 56), so still receiving super, which he was very thankful for.

Must admit Ive been employed at my current job 15yrs and not touched my LSL - Im not saving it, I just dont have any plans to take that length of time off especially considering I have about 10 weeks annual leave currently.

 

[Buzzard]

When I had my business I also had to pay my staff more when on leave than when at work. Go figure.
17.5% loading was (is?) still in the award.

 

[Hvr]

17.5% loading was (is?) still in the award.

There is a very good reason it was introduced. Shift workers getting penalty rates used to lose money when they went on leave. The loading was introduced to remedy this issue. It then flowed on to all workers

 

[Buzzard]

There is a very good reason it was introduced. Shift workers getting penalty rates used to lose money when they went on leave. The loading was introduced to remedy this issue. It then flowed on to all workers

I agree and certainly was the beneficiary for many years. I don't believe it should be in awards today.

 

[tgh]

It then flowed on to all workers… why ??

 

[Buzzard]

It then flowed on to all workers… why ??

Powerful unions.

 

[tgh]

Powerful unions. .. and that is some kind of valid reason , or demonstration of equity or fairness or….. excuse me , I need to go outside and throw up…….

 

[Buzzard]

Powerful unions. .. and that is some kind of valid reason , or demonstration of equity or fairness or….. excuse me , I need to go outside and throw up…….

Not a valid reason at all but I think that's how it happened.