Is Frequent Flyer Miles ownership moving from employees, to employers?

[nlagalle]

Are you the same person or connected to the person that posted links to a commercial website recently on this specific topic?

I missed that one simongr, got a link still?

 

[awilcockson]

Are you the same person or connected to the person that posted links to a commercial website recently on this specific topic?

That was my instant thought as well :evil:

 

[awilcockson]

I missed that one simongr, got a link still?

No it was removed. Effectively he came in as a one post wonder spruiking a service to save companies thousands by reclaiming the FF points that would normally be earnt by its employees.

 

[Fantic125]

Pretty well all of my flying is for business purposes, and I view the FF points gained from the travel in two ways;

1. as a partial bonus on top of my salary (I use the points to buy 'treats' for me and my family instead of using for upgrades or flights),
2. as partial compensation for my personal time spent on business travel and time away from my family (24 of 52 weekends last year was spent travelling).
​

I would seriously reconsider changing employment if the company tried to take ownership of the points....

 

[rwatts]

The issue of out of business hours travel is something that has been tackled by the unions in negotiating our certified agreements over the last decade. People in my government department are now entitled to time off in lieu (TOIL) for their time spent actually travelling.

That doesn't help those that believe they should be on overtime when sleeping in a hotel bed but does help when, for example, the direct evening ADL>CBR QF flight at some times of the year is not scheduled to arrive until after 2100.

For international travel I suspect that for most people in my department it is somewhat prized and they will tolerate greater imposts (they are dedicated to their work and actually want to go to war zones, etc.).

Richard

 

[significance]

As a government employee, I used to get ff points which I had to use for business purposes only. Since July last year, I don't get points at all when I fly for business. Nor do I get any compensation for the time spent travelling (almost always outside business hours) or the time spent away from home, unless you count a $15/day travel allowance to cover minor out-of-pocket expenses without receipts. I guess my employer would argue that this is built into my salary, but I have colleagues on the same salary who hardly travel at all and others who need to travel much more than I.

 

[simongr]

Just in terms of the remuneration consideration for travel outside of business hours - I see that as a bit of a furfee - I get paid a salary that relates to my role that includes travel on personal time, early morning conference calls, late night conference calls, occasional weekend work etc...

The only exception to that is if I spend an entire weekend day travelling then I am allowed to take an informal day off to compensate for that.

 

[supersizeme]

Interestingly enough I am starting to see companies in my industry advertise jobs with perks listed as follows:

• 12% super
• 18% commission rate
• Fully maintained company vehicle
• Personal use of Frequent Flyer points

At first I was appalled that it had now become a perk, but reading this thread I now understand why...

 

[BadgerBoi]

Whilst some companies are insisting employees fly coach...

"Coach"??? WTF is this, americanfrequentflyer.com?:shock:

 

[nlagalle]

Just in terms of the remuneration consideration for travel outside of business hours - I see that as a bit of a furfee - I get paid a salary that relates to my role that includes travel on personal time, early morning conference calls, late night conference calls, occasional weekend work etc...

The only exception to that is if I spend an entire weekend day travelling then I am allowed to take an informal day off to compensate for that.

I guess my exception to that is that my salary hasn't been reviewed since my travel increased by 1000%. hopefully that will be fixed soon!

 

[codash1099]

This is a small minded and petty action by an employer (with apologies to any employer this refers to). This sort of approach leads employees to seek some form of retaliation.

Many (many) years ago, a company I worked for had a policy of allowing business (or first) class flight if it occurred over a meal time. They then removed that "perk" and it resulted in employees scheduling flights so that they did not cover meal times. This inevitable resulted in a schedule that reduced the hours flown in personal time.

Same effect in the points argument - the gain is often outweighed by the loss.

 

[NM]

"Coach"??? WTF is this, americanfrequentflyer.com?:shock:

As you note, the OP is not in Australia (nor USA, at least at the time of starting this thread ). So their comments should not be considered to be specific to Australian companies, Australian government departments or Australian Frequent Flyer programs such as Qantas Frequent Flyer of Virgin Blue Velocity. And I suspect the use of European or even USA based FF programs by Australian employees of Australian companies is so small that its not on anyone's radar.

 

[oz_mark]

Many (many) years ago, a company I worked for had a policy of allowing business (or first) class flight if it occurred over a meal time. They then removed that "perk" and it resulted in employees scheduling flights so that they did not cover meal times. This inevitable resulted in a schedule that reduced the hours flown in personal time..

Indeed. I know of an employer that disallowed claims for a meal if the employee was flying during meal hours. You can imagine the consequences.

 

[anat0l]

ISTR - I think - there is a directive somewhere in German law which allows employers there (in Germany) to take ownership of points which are accrued through staff travel and use those to be put towards awards which is also staff travel.

I'm not sure if such employees are entitled to status credit or not.

 

[BAM1748]

I thought that this was illegal.

without reading through the whole thread, I think it depends on who actually pays for the FF scheme membership, the employee or company.

 

[oz_mark]

without reading through the whole thread, I think it depends on who actually pays for the FF scheme membership, the employee or company.

Indeed, for most people membership of QFF is a contractual arrangement between the individual and Qantas.

 

[BAM1748]

Indeed, for most people membership of QFF is a contractual arrangement between the individual and Qantas.

I always make sure I pay for it personally myself, use my home contact details. That way anything earned is clearly mine.

 

[markis10]

The question being asked is somewhat moot, as companies that may wish to benefit from frequent flyer points normally renegotiate airfares that dont provide points to the traveller as part of the package.

 

[NM]

The question being asked is somewhat moot, as companies that may wish to benefit from frequent flyer points normally renegotiate airfares that dont provide points to the traveller as part of the package.

At least that is the way it works in Australia. But the OP is not in Australia and so may be benefiting from the previously mentioned German laws.

 

[stuartbb]

Hi all,
Many thanks for so many comments in less than 24 hours.

I posted here because I liked the definition of this forum "This is where you can ask the hard questions about frequent flyer programs .. ", and I'm really pleased my question has generated a lot of interesting perspectives.

I agree with the comment that for some companies, the ownership of miles is irrelevant, as they could/would negotiate lower fares that don't include the benefit of the FF miles. However, I think this is an option for the largest of companies only, who have the buying power, but less so in medium sized companies, or smaller.

Having said that, it's clear that not all large companies that choose to own the FF miles do this. Some certainly attempt to manage the FF miles internally, using Excel or whatever. There were also a number of comments about government use of the FF miles that clearly stated they try to manage them internally, but probably not very well .. the point being, they didn't go back to the airline for lower prices, without FF miles. Why? Who knows?

Believe me, I fully understand the emotions related to getting FF miles, and how it can keep the peace at home. I've also done my fair share of circling the globe over the years. If I had to write a book, it would be called "Delayed" !

But, again consistent with this topic's definition about asking hard questions, isn't there a difference between employee rights and employee benefits? I never had the right to fly business class, and when my company changed the policy to save money that forced us to fly economy for trans-atlantic flights, everyone was up in arms for a while, .... but no-one left. When they downgraded the car policy, we all cried, .... but nobody left. Why? Because companies do this when times are tough, which usually means it's a last resort, and certainly preferable to layoffs. And because of tough times, it's not that employees have so many options for other vacancies, by definition. Of course, there are always exceptions ... but I'm talking generally. I suppose, after years of flying business class, we (ie where I worked) thought it was our right, but it never was. It was a privilege, a perk .. consistent with the comment in this forum that FF miles are now being offered as a perk in some job postings. In the USA, Southwestern is the cheapest airline .. very, very basic .. soon they'll also charge for a visit to the toilet, or to breath … but many companies force employees now to fly SW because the savings are huge.

As for if there's a trend for companies to own the miles instead of employees, ie my original posted question, well, it seem there's certainly some noise in that area, backed up by the comment that companies are posting FF miles as a perk.

Is it illegal? Well, I'm no lawyer, but it doesn't seem so, as it's clear in the USA some companies already own the miles, in order to reduce travel costs. How do I know about the USA? I approached the top 100 of the Fortune 500 and asked.

As for the comment in this forum in Germany, interesting.

Yes, as per a couple of the comments, I made a humble mistake a week ago with a posting here, because I didn't realize about the rules for posting, and my post was rapidly deleted. My fault. So, to keep this discussion objective, I've removed reference to my website, etc, from my profile here, so in case anyone wanted to talk to me privately, it seems they can't! But still, it's an interesting discussion.

No, I'm not American and not sitting in the USA! Correct, my reference to "coach" is what we all know as "economy class" ..

And as for the early comment about taking them from cold dead hands, I hope with the controversy I introduced here, they won't be my hands ;-)

Stuart