im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so long

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

Regarding Air China and the no fly list - if any such company has included them on the 'no fly' list I would be very interested to see what grounds they have used. I can't find evidence to support their safety record being any more noteworthy than a least on major European airline that has suffered fatal hull losses in the last few years.

Companies making these statements shold be held accountable and sued for libel if making unsubstantiated claims.

Air China's safety record is pretty good. I can only find one accident involving loss of life, back in 2002, with 128 of 166 on board killed. That is in 22 years of service.

Even going back to CAAC days there was nothing that would prevent me from flying with them.

 

[markis10]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

Air China's safety record is pretty good. I can only find one accident involving loss of life, back in 2002, with 128 of 166 on board killed. That is in 22 years of service.

Even going back to CAAC days there was nothing that would prevent me from flying with them.

OT

Going back to my ATC days there are plenty of reasons why I would not fly Air China based on overseas reports (locally there may or may not also be evidence but I am not in position to reveal any in relation to my professional experience under the provisions of The Crimes Act 1914 ), let me give you a very typical example of what I posted as being an issue with them from my perspective as a former Aviation professional:

YouTube - ATC@JFK - Air China 981 (by aldo benitez)!

If you think I am being racist I am not, English is mandated as the international language for communications and its an International requirement to be fluent in it from an aviation perspective for safety reasons. I honestly think this problem has not become more of an issue for them because they have been lucky as well as being supported by other aviation professionals, as was the case with this very serious incident:

NTSB - Runway Incursion

You may feel their record is very good based on body/incident count or another measure which you have no elaborated on, but like the financial markets past performance is only one indicator of future performance, I would not count on lady luck always helping out.

Back On topic.

Now that some time has passed it would indeed seem to be another one post wonder!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

OT

Going back to my ATC days there are plenty of reasons why I would not fly Air China based on overseas reports (locally there may or may not also be evidence but I am not in position to reveal any in relation to my professional experience under the provisions of The Crimes Act 1914 ), let me give you a very typical example of what I posted as being an issue with them from my perspective as a former Aviation professional:

YouTube - ATC@JFK - Air China 981 (by aldo benitez)!

If you think I am being racist I am not, English is mandated as the international language for communications and its an International requirement to be fluent in it from an aviation perspective for safety reasons. I honestly think this problem has not become more of an issue for them because they have been lucky as well as being supported by other aviation professionals, as was the case with this very serious incident:

NTSB - Runway Incursion

You may feel their record is very good based on body/incident count or another measure which you have no elaborated on, but like the financial markets past performance is only one indicator of future performance, I would not count on lady luck always helping out.

Back On topic.

Now that some time has passed it would indeed seem to be another one post wonder!

But near misses and other 'would have, could have, might have' events should be excluded no? Otherwise we'd have to take into account incidents such as QF running off the runway in BKK ('could have, might have' led to a fire and serious injuries) and the oxygen tank explosion over manila (that could have been far more serious). It is clear that a lot passengers DO take past performance (as in the case of QF) as being an indicator of furture performance.

The same as English is the mandated language there are plenty of air traffic communications in chinese only in China (for various security reasons). I'd much rather have a Chinese speaking pilot able to understand those instructions if necessary (especially when flying into/in China).

So I guess there are plus sides to the equation.

My point is that if you were personally running a business and some organisation, on unpublished evidence, decided to 'ban' you, it doesn't strike me as being particularly fair.

I know I know OT!!

 

[drron]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

Regarding Air China and the no fly list - if any such company has included them on the 'no fly' list I would be very interested to see what grounds they have used. I can't find evidence to support their safety record being any more noteworthy than a least on major European airline that has suffered fatal hull losses in the last few years.

Companies making these statements shold be held accountable and sued for libel if making unsubstantiated claims.

Air China's safety record is pretty good. I can only find one accident involving loss of life, back in 2002, with 128 of 166 on board killed. That is in 22 years of service.

Even going back to CAAC days there was nothing that would prevent me from flying with them.

Did you fly with CAAC.I did and never wanted to fly with them again.
Flying from Beijing to Xian in 1985.Plane was 4 hours late.My seat only had half a seat belt.Could not be put in the upright position-as were about 50% of the seats.After we had been in the air for a while I went to look for the FAs as i was hungry.Call buttons were ignored.i pulled back the curtain of the galley to find the FAs roasting chestnuts over an open fire-I kid you not.Sure the plane got me from A to B and no injuries suffered by pax but it did not induce confidence.
Then the service.When the boxed lunch came it was literally thrown at the pax.

 

[markis10]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

But near misses and other 'would have, could have, might have' events should be excluded no?

Not when the root cause is the same every time, the biggest area of concern for a long time has been english language competency. Your examples with QF all lack a common cause, mine dont.

Have a look through the archives of the NTSB/ATSB etc etc and you will see a clear trend and indication of an issue regardless of location or date.

The same as English is the mandated language there are plenty of air traffic communications in chinese only in China (for various security reasons).

I said internationally mandated, the ICAO language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground - ICAO | FLS | FAQs

So I guess there are plus sides to the equation.

Yes, but normally only one side gets to say "I told you so" down the track

I know I know OT!!

Ditto, but in response to the OP, I would not rather fly Air China or China Air.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

Not when the root cause is the same every time, the biggest area of concern for a long time has been english language competency. Your examples with QF all lack a common cause, mine dont.


I said internationally mandated, the ICAO language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground - ICAO | FLS | FAQs

True - agree with the point of root cause vs one-offs. But hey - on the positive side, at least ATC and everyone else knows this by now and can take precautions (not that they should have to!).

Also agree English is mandated internationally, my point was just that into or out of china, plus internal flights, the comms matter may be less of an issue and there may be benefits for any chiese airline in being able to understand and rapidly respond to communications in chinese during an emergency.

 

[Cultusking]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

Well it got even better with Qantas, so I miss my flight to NZ (that was not Qantas fault or even air NZ)......so no use going there for 24 hours. So I go to the ticket desk and say I want to go back to Canada next day, yip no problem ($220 latter compare that to China Airlines of $50) and im set to fly out. Reminding them of my meal request that is on my ticket, my FF card details etc....get to the airport only to find meal request once again ignored. So I remind them again!. Go to board and not 1 but 2 of the planes had broken down so we finally boarded late (once again missing my connection). Meal request = 0, happy staff = 0. So I had a word to the staff about the fact they are too tight to carry 1 extra meal on board (like China airlines always does) and the answer was YES to Qantas being too tight with the meals, and YES to things being at an all time low with them. From the most profitable airline in the world to the coughpyest in only 7 years. So what happened about 7 years ago? well it all had to do with the fact that the government was no longer recycling money through Qantas and first class travel for parliamentarians......so in fact they didnt ever make the real money they thought they did!......so long Qantas!

 

[Cultusking]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

Cultusking,

Welcome to AFF.

Without saying too much on your personal issues with Qantas I will express two comments.

1. I would always fly Qantas over Air China due safety concerns. Air China is on the must not fly list of several major corporations that I am aware of. One being the one I just retired from and that has a very large Aviation Services department.
2. Qantas like many airlines is way behind with fleet replacement plans after having been let down badly by both the major manufacturing companies. (Airbus & Boeing)

Can you be more specific about your issues and 'old and dirty' aircraft. What flights? What aircraft types and what fare class were you flying? This halps people make more informed comments with regard to your complaints.

Well its Jumbo's both ways from LA to BNE, and yes they are old, dirty and in my row the monitors were faulty and the seat I was in fell apart so I had to change!

 

[Cultusking]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

[
I cut up my Q rewards card in front of the ticketing booth yesterday and after this flight thats it. I never like to complain because I "hope" it was just a 1 off......but alas it has just been too many times.....if you book through a travel agent Qantas dont want to know you, book with Qantas and they say "you got a good fare so we will gouge you to change it" too bad so sad......

What were you doing with scissors just prior to flying and what did you do with them?[/QUOTE]

I was at the ticketing booth and I folded it up breaking it into little bits (cutting up was a figure of speech)

 

[Cultusking]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

Could it be another one post wonder, given the mistakes with the post as far as terms go despite being a member for 10+ years and complaints of old aircraft on the very routes that have the newest aircraft in operation (both 747ER and A380), I wonder!

Well funny enough the BNE-LAX route has been using the same planes for a long time, unless they go out of there way to give me old planes the one I finally flew out Saturday on (after 2 others had broken down) was 23 years old according to the staff

 

[Cultusking]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

I wish the mods would delete these types of threads if the OP does not respond within a given time to questions posted.

If not for the great online and real friends I have within this community, the barrage of this typical bullsh!t from someone who has had a bad hair day would drive me away forever. Q Rewards card please! For someone who travels as much as the OP - 10 years+ with QF and other airlines, it says to me he/she has not learned a thing about travel. The comments regarding a TA making the bookings - rubbish as well - 90% of all of my flights are booked through a TA and Qantas treat me no different than if I book over the web direct with QF.

Flying on the cheapest fares will also create inflexibility and extra charges if you want to change a booking, and I'm willing to bet my left nut that the OP is the type who would be trying to change at T -24 as well - I have experienced little pain with QF in the past changing INT bookings, just the standard booking fee, what is it, $30 or something, but never at less than T -24!

As pointed out also, the routes mentioned, QF fly their most modern fleet - what more can you ask for, does the OP want A330's for the long haul? Air China - you can have them, the last 3 companies I have worked for have Air China as no fly, along with Garuda and a couple of others...

Pft!!

munitalP

well funny how people keep saying how new the fleet with Qantas is, I have never been on a newish plane from LAX-BNE or back, the one on Saturday was about 23 years old the staff told me. Also China airlines does use Airbus and I find the engines are much quieter even though on both carriers I wear earplugs. If all the supporters want to continue to fly Qantas I dont care, I just know I wont be and im all the happier for it.............and when the staff admit it (that the airline is not in such good shape) thats not a good sign. But hey, im happy with better service, more flexibility, better and correct meals, cheaper fares with another airline any day!

 

[Cultusking]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

You seem to have your choice of airlines mixed up - if you're flying via TPE you would be on China Airlines (CI) which is from Taiwan. Air China (CA) is from mainland China & a different airline altogether.
yes I did screw it up, China airlines is what I meant to quote, i had just stepped off a 18 hour flight (which is usually about 13) so that happens im afraid


So.....you cut up your Woollies Everyday Rewards Card in front of a Qantas ticketing booth? You never like to complain? I find that hard to believe - your very first post with AFF is complaining, about what I'm not sure because you haven't been the slightest bit specific about anything.
FF card....woollies card dont be stupid

What outcome were you hoping to achieve by this post?
Well I was viewing my feelings of an airline that was at the top of their game and is now simply a disappointment to fly with, isnt that what a forum is for? or is it just for happy travel stories? I have been lucky enough to spend a great deal of time traveling all around the world and with lots of different companies, to watch one get ****ty especially when its home grown is sad



If you book through a travel agent and then ring the airline to change they will refer you back to the travel agent who did your booking. Why didn't you go back to the travel agent to change your booking anyway?

If you want to deal direct with the airline when changing your booking buy the ticket direct from the airline to begin with.

It's a fact of life that often the cheaper the fare, the more restrictive the conditions such as change fees. You need to read the conditions of the fare thoroughly in particular the cost of any change fees before you pay for your ticket. :!:
oh yes im just like most people, I stop and ask the company I book through to read and explain all the fine print to me, even run it past my lawyer to make sure they wont take my house!

If the fees are too much then you have the option of either or selecting a higher fare that might have cheaper fees for changing or choose a different airline who has cheaper change fees. You could even get all your 'ducks in a row' and ensure you have the correct dates to begin with so you don't need to change. :idea:
oh yes next time time when an important meeting comes up unexpectedly in another country that I must attend I will be sure to tell them what you told me.

It's worth noting that if you book through a travel agent that they usually have their own service fees should you change a booking on top of what the airline charges. :arrow:

yes I would prefer to have the time on my hands to book all my travel directly myself however im a pretty busy guy so I leave it up to a third party (ie travel agent)

 

[medhead]

Well funny enough the BNE-LAX route has been using the same planes for a long time, unless they go out of there way to give me old planes the one I finally flew out Saturday on (after 2 others had broken down) was 23 years old according to the staff

Dare I say if you had of been more specific in your first post you would have got a been informed response.

I'm also confused about this connection your making between vein the most profitable airline and then being coughpyest. I dare say that qantas would remain one of the most profitable airlines.

 

[markis10]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

Well funny enough the BNE-LAX route has been using the same planes for a long time, unless they go out of there way to give me old planes the one I finally flew out Saturday on (after 2 others had broken down) was 23 years old according to the staff

Thanks for taking the time to post more info on the situation, yes BNE-LAX does use the old fleet, however Qantas dont have any aircraft that were 23 years old. You went through three planes and still managed to depart an hour and a half late!

 

[nlagalle]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

well funny how people keep saying how new the fleet with Qantas is, I have never been on a newish plane from LAX-BNE or back, the one on Saturday was about 23 years old the staff told me. Also China airlines does use Airbus and I find the engines are much quieter even though on both carriers I wear earplugs. If all the supporters want to continue to fly Qantas I dont care, I just know I wont be and im all the happier for it.............and when the staff admit it (that the airline is not in such good shape) thats not a good sign. But hey, im happy with better service, more flexibility, better and correct meals, cheaper fares with another airline any day!

A check of airfleets shows the olest 747 QF have has only just turned 22. Delivered in 1989.

Qantas Fleet of B747 (Active) - Airfleets

 

[drron]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

well funny how people keep saying how new the fleet with Qantas is, I have never been on a newish plane from LAX-BNE or back, the one on Saturday was about 23 years old the staff told me. Also China airlines does use Airbus and I find the engines are much quieter even though on both carriers I wear earplugs. If all the supporters want to continue to fly Qantas I dont care, I just know I wont be and im all the happier for it.............and when the staff admit it (that the airline is not in such good shape) thats not a good sign. But hey, im happy with better service, more flexibility, better and correct meals, cheaper fares with another airline any day!

Yes the plane left late but there was only 1 change of plane the day before.Obviously QF had to reschedule this second plane and they knew it would be late the day before.So the staff appear to be misinformed.here is the flight record(BNE time is UTC+10 hours)-


Flight Events

This section shows the various changes that were made to the information about the flight including the time the source was changed as well as the data source that caused the change. The date and time of the event are displayed in UTC time.

DateTimeSourceEventData UpdatedJul 28 8:24 AM Schedules RecordCreated

Jul 30 1:05 AM Airline Gate Adjustment

• AEQP Changed To 744

Jul 30 1:05 AM FAA Time Adjustment

• Scheduled Runway Departure Changed To 07/31/10 11:10 AM
• Estimated Runway Departure Changed To 07/31/10 11:10 AM
• Scheduled Runway Arrival Changed To 07/31/10 07:59 AM
• Estimated Runway Arrival Changed To 07/31/10 07:59 AM

Jul 30 5:00 PM Airline Time Adjustment

• Estimated Gate Departure Changed To 07/31/10 11:55 AM
• Estimated Gate Arrival Changed To 07/31/10 07:35 AM

Jul 31 12:07 AM FAA Time Adjustment

• Estimated Runway Arrival Changed From 07/31/10 07:59 AM To 07/31/10 08:17 AM

Jul 31 12:08 AM FAA Time Adjustment

• Estimated Runway Departure Changed From 07/31/10 11:10 AM To 07/31/10 12:05 PM
• Estimated Runway Arrival Changed From 07/31/10 08:17 AM To 07/31/10 08:27 AM

Jul 31 1:30 AM Airline Time Adjustment

• Estimated Gate Departure Changed From 07/31/10 11:55 AM To 07/31/10 12:25 PM

Jul 31 3:00 AM Airline STATUS-Active

• Actual Gate Departure Changed To 07/31/10 12:50 PM
• Estimated Gate Departure Changed From 07/31/10 12:25 PM To 07/31/10 12:45 PM
• Status Changed From Scheduled To Active

Jul 31 3:15 AM Airline Time Adjustment

• Actual Runway Departure Changed To 07/31/10 01:07 PM
• Estimated Gate Arrival Changed From 07/31/10 07:35 AM To 07/31/10 08:25 AM

Jul 31 7:10 AM FAA Time Adjustment

• Estimated Runway Arrival Changed From 07/31/10 08:27 AM To 07/31/10 08:47 AM

Jul 31 8:06 AM FAA Time Adjustment

• Estimated Runway Arrival Changed From 07/31/10 08:47 AM To 07/31/10 08:28 AM

Jul 31 10:03 AM FAA Time Adjustment

• Estimated Runway Arrival Changed From 07/31/10 08:28 AM To 07/31/10 08:27 AM

Jul 31 11:28 AM FAA Time Adjustment

• Estimated Runway Arrival Changed From 07/31/10 08:27 AM To 07/31/10 08:28 AM

Jul 31 11:42 AM FAA Time Adjustment

• Estimated Runway Arrival Changed From 07/31/10 08:28 AM To 07/31/10 08:29 AM

Jul 31 1:10 PM FAA Time Adjustment

• Estimated Runway Arrival Changed From 07/31/10 08:29 AM To 07/31/10 08:36 AM

Jul 31 1:57 PM FAA Time Adjustment

• Estimated Runway Arrival Changed From 07/31/10 08:36 AM To 07/31/10 08:10 AM

Jul 31 2:01 PM FAA Time Adjustment

• Estimated Runway Arrival Changed From 07/31/10 08:10 AM To 07/31/10 08:11 AM

Jul 31 2:46 PM Airline Time Adjustment

• Estimated Gate Arrival Changed From 07/31/10 08:25 AM To 07/31/10 08:30 AM

Jul 31 3:41 PM FAA STATUS-Wheels Down

• Actual Runway Arrival Changed To 07/31/10 08:33 AM
• Status Changed From Active To Landed

Now just imagine China airlines having a plane go unserviceable in BNE.Do you think the delay would be less than 2 hours?
Now overall China airlines has a better record out of BNE-73% on time,av delay 13 min,versus QF to LAX 70% on time,av delay 24 min.But this means 1 airline is fantastic and one the worst in the world.Hmm.
I will agree QF standards have slipped over the last 7 years-but so have most others including CX and JAL.Meals certainly can be a lottery on QF(IMHO).The only airline internationally that I fly on whose meals have improved in that time is AA,but then they had to.

 

[gumpy]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

I had a good read on this thread and have figured the truth like in most arguments lie somewhere in between. There are some extremist views here =).

I've a very frequent flyer (though not sure compared to those in this forum) I fly 6 times a month. In the normal world that's a lot hehe...

Now, I'm generally satisfied with QF's service level, by no means do i think they're the best. Even before I hit QFF Gold I thought they were ok... would I pay my own money for them? No, but for work I never requested using a different carrier. Most of the time they got me to my destination in once peice with minimal hassle. The flight time choices are great, most times I get home in time on friday to make indoor soccer games without compromising on the work I need to get done.

When I reached gold value equation changed, I started booking all my leisure flights with Q, not for the points or sc's but the lounge access. My holidays are to random parts of the world usually requiring two transits to get there and the extra 200-500 dollars on the flight is easily worth it. My gf orginally complained when booking these flights but that all changed after the first transit experience... I acknowledge, as many have pointed out, that there are cheaper flights out there and sometimes with even better service levels like Malaysian Air, but in the end QF ain't so bad and benefits do change the value equation, this is why we stick to them.

In saying that I do now fly the return leg from NZ via NZ Air as they have matched the status level. If it weren't for the Flounge I'd go Air NZ both ways... They're better and cheaper.

If my travels were more international rather than domestic and had to stick to one carrier it still would be QF, from experience on both Star Alliance and OW top level benefits the Flounge access is worth more than SA's (sing air, air nz) better levels of flight service IMHO though this is contingent on you making WP for QF. If one was never to hit the high status levels, QF wouldn't be at the top of my list, it'd be near the bottom actually.

 

[straitman]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

Regarding Air China and the no fly list - if any such company has included them on the 'no fly' list I would be very interested to see what grounds they have used. I can't find evidence to support their safety record being any more noteworthy than a least on major European airline that has suffered fatal hull losses in the last few years.

Companies making these statements shold be held accountable and sued for libel if making unsubstantiated claims.

The information is for company use only and is based upon, as I explained earlier, audits and assessments of many small and large carriers world wide.

I do have to ask why any company should be 'held accountable and sued for libel' for having a company policy :?:

 

[serfty]

What I would really like is for admin/moderator to do an ip lookup and tell us which country this user posted from...(presuming no proxy of course etc etc)

Since you asked, QLD!

 

[markis10]

Re: im sorry Qantas but you really have gone downhill... why? I loved Qantas for so l

Since you asked, QLD!

Interesting, very quick trip home then considering they were on QF15 Saturday, its technically possible to post a local IP address when OS but it would require necessary effort for a forum post.