I wonder had JASA's continued ...

[ozbeachbabe]

Bring back MASAs,JASAs and FASAs is what we would really like to see happen. It cannot be that hard IT wise.

If we read between the lines; it's not really an IT issue but more a management decision not to offer this product any more.

I wonder had JASA's continued how much more money people would have spent with QF on paid QF flights in ordee to enjoy the fruits of their labour like F Lounge access when travelling on QF, JQ or OW.

I guess more importantly, how much business is now going to *A or VA and partner airlines that QF would've retained had JASA's stayed?

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

I wonder had JASA's continued how much more money people would have spent with QF on paid QF flights in ordee to enjoy the fruits of their labour like F Lounge access when travelling on QF, JQ or OW.

I guess more importantly, how much business is now going to *A or VA and partner airlines that QF would've retained had JASA's stayed?

With one segment of the FF member base there would be a substantial drop in associated revenues to the entire group. Overall probably not a lot of change and to QFs benefit they know most people are lazy and won't hunt around for a better deal...

I could be wrong!

 

[JohnK]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Bring back MASAs,JASAs and FASAs is what we would really like to see happen. It cannot be that hard IT wise.

Why oh why would they want to introduce that stupidity again? So people overpaying tax or earning obscene multiple credit card sign on bonuses can earn status easily?

JohnK I'm not sure why we have to go through this every time. You've previously admitted to doing status runs (on cheap CX fares in Asia from memory) so the selective moral high horse stuff wears a bit thin.

You are totally misunderstanding me. I am including myself in the above statement. I have been comped 3 times now but have made it in my own right each time. Not taking the bigh ground.

 

[amaroo]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

I wonder had JASA's continued how much more money people would have spent with QF on paid QF flights in ordee to enjoy the fruits of their labour like F Lounge access when travelling on QF, JQ or OW.

I guess more importantly, how much business is now going to *A or VA and partner airlines that QF would've retained had JASA's stayed?

You hear the same questions when companies pulled shareholder discounts - remember those?

Plenty had status before JASA ... plenty will have it after.

 

[Anna]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

I wonder had JASA's continued how much more money people would have spent with QF on paid QF flights in ordee to enjoy the fruits of their labour like F Lounge access when travelling on QF, JQ or OW.

I guess more importantly, how much business is now going to *A or VA and partner airlines that QF would've retained had JASA's stayed?

In my case, the difference between 1200 SCs and 115 SCs At least I cracked triple figures with QF! It's just no fun any more without the mASA game to play. (Not that I actually played it that much).

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Yes, I understand. My point is that it's never about loyalty, it's always about frequency.

The programme is not about frequency. 2 return trips in F can have you at WP. It's about spend and profitability for QF. They couldn't give a rats a$$ about your loyalty though, that's true.

At 12,000+ LTSCs, I'm chipping away for LTG then off I go into the wide blue yonder.

 

[greenfish]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

In my case, the difference between 1200 SCs and 115 SCs At least I cracked triple figures with QF! It's just no fun any more without the mASA game to play. (Not that I actually played it that much).

Likewise, 1214 SCs to 31 July. This year's forecast: 10. I made the decision to move my points earn to VA, so VA status is now more useful to me.

 

[ComeFlyWithMe]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Bring back MASAs,JASAs and FASAs is what we would really like to see happen. It cannot be that hard IT wise.

This is not an IT issue, it's a commercial decision. You should have heard the attitude when I was trying to change my last one. Anyone would think I stole from QF with the way I was treated.

 

[medhead]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

In my case, the difference between 1200 SCs and 115 SCs At least I cracked triple figures with QF! It's just no fun any more without the mASA game to play. (Not that I actually played it that much).

I'll still get 1240SC on current projections. But only one status bonus, you know those 8000 (highly valuable ) points for earning 500 SC on QF.

 

[TonyHancock]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

The one thing I have learnt over the last four or five years is that frequent flyer programs have little to do with loyalty - mine or the airline's. It is just business, the airline wants to maximise its profits and I want to minimise my costs whilst maximising benefits when traveling.

The mASA made it Xmas for me every time I booked. At peak I was earning more than 200,000 points purely from mASA's every year. My first year as a P1 was earned on cash fares, but the following years the mASA came to dominate and there is no doubt QF lost revenue from me as a result of the mASA. My assumption, rightly or wrongly is that the sales of points to Amex and the banks did not offset this revenue loss. (As an aside I don't and didn't have have any ATO payments to capitalise on either.)

I may be wrong, but the benefits I have received from QF far outweigh my value as a customer to them. I have been able to achieve the benefit levels I like and keep some extra cash in my pocket - extra cash that I may have spent with QF if it were not for the mASA. QF's goal is to extract that extra cash from my pocket so in turn has removed the mASA and made it harder to earn status by using OW airlines. It is not about loyalty it is business.

I could spend the extra cash with QF, but first it is time to look around to see if I am better off with an alternative strategy.....and after a bit of research it is clear that I am better off with another airline's FF program. I do have to spend a little more than I did, but not as much as I would have to spend if continued with QF. So I am spending more cash on flights but not with QF. I also have little need for QF points too. In reality though I suspect QF is better off without me because the loss of my revenue will be more than offset by those that continue down the QF path paying more for their benefits (status).

As for the OP I think his issue has not been addressed by the arm of QF "Loyalty" that needs to deal with it. I suspect when someone with the authority to use their initiative looks at it the answer may be different.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

The one thing I have learnt over the last four or five years is that frequent flyer programs have little to do with loyalty - mine or the airline's.

Was thinking about this 'loyalty' aspect. Maybe it's not so much Qantas' loyalty to us, the passengers, but it's certainly all about loyalty from the passenger to Qantas.

For the millions of members, the FF program essentially locks you in to flying Qantas... despite the QF fares being higher, despite the charging for options such as seat selection, despite the hefty fuel surcharges, despite simpler and fairer, despite the lack of partner availability on the QFFF booking engine, despite hefty award assistance fees, despite unfair credit card surcharges.

If, despite all of the above, people choose to fly QF because they think they're gonna getting a 'free' flight... isn't that perfect loyalty?

 

[TonyHancock]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

If, despite all of the above, people choose to fly QF because they think they're gonna getting a 'free' flight... isn't that perfect loyalty?

Isn't that just perfect, well......good, marketing by QF? Surely loyalty would be sticking with QF when there is no prospect, real or otherwise, of a free flight?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Isn't that just perfect, well......good, marketing by QF? Surely loyalty would be sticking with QF when there is no prospect, real or otherwise, of a free flight?

good point!

 

[amaroo]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

When you can signup ~ half of the population - it's pretty much a given your marketing is good.

 

[RichardMEL]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Several opinionated comments on various issues raised here.

1. Signing up half the population is more or less easy when there's 2 main players (ignoring the AA/SQ/NZ/UA/EK/EY etc "dribble" of AU based members which would be, I should think, relatively minor numbers wise). It's like Pepsi and Coke. One's bigger than the other, but between them they have most of the soft drink market one way or another. RC? TAB? gone/forgotten/irrelevant. Personally I miss Jolt being here, but I also miss my 20's

2. Re QF Loyalty and mASA's -

TH nailed it for me. The decision to axe mASA's is purely business, and that leads into why QFF is no longer really known as "Qantas Frequent Flyer" internally but QF Loyalty - a business unit - as more and more of QF's revenue comes from ancillary sources such as CC's, tie ups with EDR, and so on, the flying component becomes less and less of the overall picture when it comes to revenue to QF. The focus, essentially, has gone from flying to as much about CC's, selling toasters (at a huge yield premium to QF), vouchers, movie tickets, etc.

Same with mASA's. Why would QF decide to remove this? Why did we as flyers all love them? "cheap" way to gain Status Credits mostly. Why would QF hate that? "cheap" way to gain Status Credits mostly. While yes you "paid" for mASA's with points, the yield on that to QF is minimal compared to purchasing a J or F seat on whatever sector. That's why the current incarnation of ASA's has a huge points cost that more accurately (to QF) reflects the "price" of a revenue ticket. It's about revenue and yield, and the bean counters running the show simply realised that mASA's were eating into yields, even if they were using inventory (eg: U/P class) that QF thinks would go unsold anyway. This kind of thing has contributed a small amount to the profit turn (though IIRC the QF loyalty profit was only 30 odd million this year).

I'd also suggest QF figured the loss of mASA's were a small change. Apart from folks like us who know what they were and the value, how many average, toaster buying, public would have used these things on a regular basis? I'm willing to bet few.

And again, as TH noted, the bean counters wouldn't really value someone who got to WP or P1 on DSC promos or mASA's in terms of their "value" to QF revenue wise. Someone like the OP who buys F fares - they WOULD have far more value.

I doubt I, myself, am a high value customer to QF despite heading into my 3rd year of self funded P1 status. I buy mostly sale fares, do the odd USA SC run, the odd NZ run etc in between my flights I do for pleasure. I'm not the guy who flies to LAX 6x year full F or 15 asia trips full J, or even the road warrior paying full Y walk ups on SYD-MEL weekly for her business meetings.

I definitely agree the OP should have WP extended - it would make business sense.. but I also think, as with others who have posted here, whatever happens now, the whole issue has probably tarnished QF for the OP for the future, and they will book away anyway. An example of how one decision can influence future business (potentially anyway).. and it's not like the OP hasn't given QF multiple chances to make it right in their eyes either. Seems to most of us it's a no brainer to extend based on booked flying, paid F etc... but we're not counting beans as someone at QF is.

my 3 cents.

 

[medhead]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

2. Re QF Loyalty and mASA's -

TH nailed it for me. The decision to axe mASA's is purely business, and that leads into why QFF is no longer really known as "Qantas Frequent Flyer" internally but QF Loyalty - a business unit - as more and more of QF's revenue comes from ancillary sources such as CC's, tie ups with EDR, and so on, the flying component becomes less and less of the overall picture when it comes to revenue to QF. The focus, essentially, has gone from flying to as much about CC's, selling toasters (at a huge yield premium to QF), vouchers, movie tickets, etc.

Same with mASA's. Why would QF decide to remove this? Why did we as flyers all love them? "cheap" way to gain Status Credits mostly. Why would QF hate that? "cheap" way to gain Status Credits mostly. While yes you "paid" for mASA's with points, the yield on that to QF is minimal compared to purchasing a J or F seat on whatever sector. That's why the current incarnation of ASA's has a huge points cost that more accurately (to QF) reflects the "price" of a revenue ticket. It's about revenue and yield, and the bean counters running the show simply realised that mASA's were eating into yields, even if they were using inventory (eg: U/P class) that QF thinks would go unsold anyway. This kind of thing has contributed a small amount to the profit turn (though IIRC the QF loyalty profit was only 30 odd million this year).


my 3 cents.

While it is self apparent that removal of MASA was a business decision, much of your commentary repeats the usual incorrect assumptions about MASA. The fact remains that MASA came from classic award inventory. The yield on MASA was better than the yield on classic awards. Sure the earned points and SC had a cost, as Lesley Grant mentioned. My answer/question to that is tell me how much you want to charge me. If they were truly making a business decision, why not reprice MASA?

The current points plus pay are not comparable to the old ASA, despite what qantas may say. Current points plus pay are based on cash fares, an entire cabin or aircraft could be sold as points plus pay. That was never the case for MASA, which were always limited by classic award availability. There are numerous threads that provide testimony to the lack of business and first awards. If they are prepared to sell a given seat for the price of a classic award then they should be prepared to sell the same seat at a higher price that compensates for the cost of the points and SC.

To get a MASA there had to be a classic award. I'll go out of a limb and say no one does points plus pay when there is a classic award available. Sure people might buy points plus pay if there isn't a classic award, but removal of MASA does not impact that situation. Removal of MASA does not increase the uptake of points plus pay.

The limited audience argument also works both ways. People who know about MASA, know about MASA - they know the value of their points. Those people are almost never going to pay a full priced points plus pay ticket. Those people will most likely go back to the classic awards, thereby decreasing yield on redeemed seats. As a business decision, it seems dubious. Why not push the limits to see how much this "special" group of people are prepared to pay for those SC? That increased cost could always be recovered in cash money, via the co-pay.

Loyalty EBIT increased by $30 million. Just had a quick look and can't find a profit number.

No doubt this will get a heap of responses that Qantas ain't going to bring back MASA and I need to get over it. Anyone who determines that I'm arguing for a return of MASA (or that removal of MASA was the only option) is as delusional as the decision to remove MASA.

 

[RichardMEL]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

Fair points here

While it is self apparent that removal of MASA was a business decision, much of you commentary repeats the usual incorrect assumptions about MASA. The fact remains that MASA came from classic award inventory. The yield on MASA was better than the yield on classic awards. Sure the earned points and SC had a cost, as Lesley Grant mentioned. My answer/question to that is tell me how much you want to charge me. If they were truly making a business decision, why not reprice MASA?

I would argue that MASA has a lower yield to QF compared with pure classic awards (out of the same inventory, as you point out, be it X,U or P) because, as you do state, there is a cost to QF to allocate points and SC on those MASA's vs the none for the Classic Award, which thius to me suggests the "cost" of the points/SC's earned is a (small) reduction in yield of the MASA compared to the Classic Award.

For those that used the points to pay for the taxes in a MASA (IIRC that became an option at some point to "pay" the whole thing in points) then the value of the taxes, which QF of course does not keep, ups the yield on the points paid to QF (unless I have my math inside out which is always possible )

The current points plus pay are not comparable to the old ASA, despite what qantas may say. Current points plus pay are based on cash fares, an entire cabin or aircraft could be sold as points plus pay. That was never the case for MASA, which were always limited by classic award availability. There are numerous threads that provide testimony to the lack of business and first awards. If they are prepared to sell a given seat for the price of a classic award then they should be prepared to sell the same seat at a higher price that compensates for the cost of the points and SC.

To get a MASA there had to be a classic award. I'll go out of a limb and say no one does points plus pay when there is a classic award available. Sure people might buy points plus pay if there isn't a classic award, but removal of MASA does not impact that situation. Removal of MASA does not increase the uptake of points plus pay.

The limited audience argument also works both ways. People who know about MASA, know about MASA - they know the value of their points. Those people are almost never going to pay a full priced points plus pay ticket. Those people will most likely go back to the classic awards, thereby decreasing yield on redeemed seats. As a business decision, it seems dubious. Why not push the limits to see how much this "special" group of people are prepared to pay for those SC? That increased cost could always be recovered in cash money, via the co-pay.

Loyalty EBIT increased by $30 million. Just had a quick look and can't find a profit number.

No doubt this will get a heap of responses that Qantas ain't going to bring back MASA and I need to get over it. Anyone who determines that I'm arguing for a return of MASA (or that removal of MASA was the only option) is as delusional as the decision to remove MASA.

I'm not sure who has suggested points+pay ("p+p") equals the "new" ASA - certainly not me. I was comparing the "pay for flight with points"(and only points) pricing for seats (as opposed to awards) as the comparision as those seats paid for with points would get you the SC and FF points as with the "old" ASA's (these always existed of course, except for the what we call the MASA's suggesting those purchased where award inventory existed and one could thus get the same seat at a lower "price" for the ASA).

I know one AFF poster who would possibly use p+p over a classic award, but I digress

re "There are numerous threads that provide testimony to the lack of business and first awards. If they are prepared to sell a given seat for the price of a classic award then they should be prepared to sell the same seat at a higher price that compensates for the cost of the points and SC." - Some would argue that they do this already with the "new" ASA, but of course that's not at all what you mean. I could certainly see a situation where QF may be smart to offer a "bundled" approach, much like your JQ "Max" bundles - eg:

eg:
ABC-XYZ:

Y classic award 10k points
Y classic award+earn points/SC 15k points
J classic award 20k points
J classic award+earn points/SC 30k points
F classic award 30k points
F classic award+earn points/SC 40k points

(or whatever, obviously these numbers are just randomly picked out by me). It could potentially even be dynamic pricing based on factors such as the product involved (eg: QF J trans tasman on the 737 vs "QF" J on the EK A380 same route).

As you wrote it could be a win/win to price these "bundles" out to see how much we will value it to buy. I wouldn't have an issue with that at all. It would be smart too I think. I think QF just got jack of essentially "giving away" points/SC for the same points price as your classic awards but weren't innovative enough to think "well fine, if they want this, pay a bit extra..." (or possibly they are, but there's a limitation in Amadeus or whatever GDS they are using these days that makes this difficult, I don't know)


re "Those people will most likely go back to the classic awards, thereby decreasing yield on redeemed seats. As a business decision, it seems dubious." - I disagree. Remember the classic awards are offered on flights where QF thinks it will get zero yield from that seat in the first place by offering it up as an award seat (ie: will go unsold according to yield/revenue management projections) thus "selling" it for a classic award price is still all positive yield revenue to QF as far as I can tell. They'd rather get something rather than nothing as it were.

I certainly agree that in the vast majority of cases, p+p is a poor value propisition for most savvy flyers (such as the membership here) but QF is clearly pushing this as an option. I'm thinking mostly to reduce their liability of points.

 

[wandering_fred]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

...

The current points plus pay are not comparable to the old ASA, despite what qantas may say. Current points plus pay are based on cash fares, an entire cabin or aircraft could be sold as points plus pay. That was never the case for MASA, which were always limited by classic award availability. There are numerous threads that provide testimony to the lack of business and first awards. If they are prepared to sell a given seat for the price of a classic award then they should be prepared to sell the same seat at a higher price that compensates for the cost of the points and SC.

To get a MASA there had to be a classic award. I'll go out of a limb and say no one does points plus pay when there is a classic award available. Sure people might buy points plus pay if there isn't a classic award, but removal of MASA does not impact that situation. Removal of MASA does not increase the uptake of points plus pay.

Alas I would argue that you have not done enough research into classic awards. Last May classic awards were available for 18K point and roughly $AU100 in Y SYD-AKL. Points and pay based on the sale fare were 15K points and roughly $AU100 ( and earned 20 SC and 1750 points as a SG). If you want a proper comparison the AA awards would have likely been 10K AA points and a few US$. But the existing stash of QF points needs to find a good use. And the lack of international options from PER challenges the upgrade usage route.

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

I would argue that MASA has a lower yield to QF compared with pure classic awards (out of the same inventory, as you point out, be it X,U or P) because, as you do state, there is a cost to QF to allocate points and SC on those MASA's vs the none for the Classic Award, which thius to me suggests the "cost" of the points/SC's earned is a (small) reduction in yield of the MASA compared to the Classic Award.

But in many cases, the Qantas imposed charges were higher for an xASA than a classic award. IIRC in some cases they were considerably more. In that sense, the awarding of SCs were no different to JQ bundles.

So either JQ has got it wrong with their bundle policy (in which case why are they still offering them), or JQ has it right (and Qf can't really argue the SCs were 'free' or cost them money).

 

[chooms]

Re: I've felt the sting of the QFF Loyalty Middle Finger

A double whammy is if you are in Y and have your QF WP (OWE) number in, the system sometimes sees you as an AA EXP and you can be eligible for a complimentary domestic upgrade. Don't know what it's like now with the increased numbers of US airways elites becoming EXP.

When has this happened? Every time I've been over there and used AA for dom flights with my QF WP number in the system this has never happened.