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Heads up about program changes

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dcm

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I have not tried to determine how these changes affect me, but as someone who mostly travels discount economy with one or two JASA international trips to help maintain WP, I suspect I will be worse off. I have been an intensely loyal Qantas customer but am beginning to think that Qantas sees me as a liability. I certainly do not feel valued in this latest move. Two things have recently caused me to doubt the wisdom of my loyalty. The first was a return flight to India in Y on SIA. I found the sevice excellent and the IFE outstanding. These, together with the fact that I could return direct from Singapore to Adelaide on a daylight flight, made a very positive impression on me. The second was the fact that an email from Qantas Holidays went straight to my Junk folder, so I thought there might be a message here. I wish I had confidence that Qantas is making the best decisions for its future.
 

Jack3193

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Regarding MASAs - obviously I understand why people who have benefited from them in the past will be unhappy to see them go, but I have to say I can't think of an objective reason why they should continue to exist. Does any other FF program have an equivalent?

BTW, I don't think it's a contradiction to have a DSC promotion and then get rid of MASAs. Red Roo explained the abolition of MASAs as follows:

The decision has now been made to discontinue “MASAs” as they represent a short cut to tier status and add a significant cost without the revenue in return.
(My bolding)

It's quite possible that DSC promotions bring in sufficient revenue to justify their existence - in fact I assume they do, as they are commonly used by quite a few airlines, and if a promotional tool doesn't increase revenue, it generally doesn't keep getting used.
 

ketsuzei

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Saying that MASAs "add a significant cost without the revenue in return" is basically just saying "we've given up trying to price them properly".

They're not evil per se, and given the right circumstances I probably would have been prepared to make a substantially higher co-payment.
 

serfty

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Cheers for that - hadn't noticed! M outbound, S inbound. Will get something but it won't be much as it was just a puddle jump flight.
There is (currently) a 500 minimum point earn for eligible AA flights.
 

amaroo

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Depends on your class of travel.For us mrsdrron makes WP with QFF but I credit to AA and only get a little more than halfway to EXP on Aadvantage.
However if you are a road warrior and do a return flight every week then those 100 segments get you EXP.
Had my first serious look at the AA earning charts.

To hit OWE with AA you need to fly 66,666 miles on full fare Y or above, or 100 segments....100,000 miles on discount economy.....200,000 miles on deep discount economy. For status earning - F doesn't earn anymore than flying Y.

American Airlines AAdvantage Elite Qualification Requirements

Switching over to AA makes sense for a heavy OW partner flyer...........not so much for a dom flyer.
 

drron

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Had my first serious look at the AA earning charts.

To hit OWE with AA you need to fly 66,666 miles on full fare Y or above, or 100 segments....100,000 miles on discount economy.....200,000 miles on deep discount economy. For status earning - F doesn't earn anymore than flying Y.

American Airlines AAdvantage Elite Qualification Requirements

Switching over to AA makes sense for a heavy OW partner flyer...........not so much for a dom flyer.
Timing is everything.I moved at the right time so have no worries.will always be OWS-at least whilst OW continues to exist.
Unfortunately over the last couple of years Aadvantage has had it's fair share of enhancements making it much less attractive than it was.
 

Robbi

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Regarding MASAs - obviously I understand why people who have benefited from them in the past will be unhappy to see them go, but I have to say I can't think of an objective reason why they should continue to exist. Does any other FF program have an equivalent?

BTW, I don't think it's a contradiction to have a DSC promotion and then get rid of MASAs. Red Roo explained the abolition of MASAs as follows:

Well they got >$1k from me they wouldn't have otherwise and J was still 50% empty on most of the flights I took.


(My bolding)

It's quite possible that DSC promotions bring in sufficient revenue to justify their existence - in fact I assume they do, as they are commonly used by quite a few airlines, and if a promotional tool doesn't increase revenue, it generally doesn't keep getting used.
Well they got >$1k from me they wouldn't have otherwise and J was still 50% empty on most of the flights I took. My ripping them off actually gave them $$$ they would not have had.
 

Jack3193

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Saying that MASAs "add a significant cost without the revenue in return" is basically just saying "we've given up trying to price them properly".

They're not evil per se, and given the right circumstances I probably would have been prepared to make a substantially higher co-payment.
I guess QF are taking the view that the only ASA pricing that works (for them) is what you get when booking a standard ASA online.

Anyway, my comment was just a response to the view that it's contradictory to have DSC promotions if they want to abolish short cuts to status. My point is that QF haven't said they want to abolish short cuts to status, they've just said they are abolishing one particular short cut to status, on the grounds that it doesn't bring in revenue.

Well they got >$1k from me they wouldn't have otherwise and J was still 50% empty on most of the flights I took. My ripping them off actually gave them $$$ they would not have had.
Maybe so, but I assume they have done a broader analysts to reach their conclusion that they lose money on MASAs.
 

Newk

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Saying that MASAs "add a significant cost without the revenue in return" is basically just saying "we've given up trying to price them properly".

They're not evil per se, and given the right circumstances I probably would have been prepared to make a substantially higher co-payment.

that ^^^^^^^^^
 

Newk

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Well they got >$1k from me they wouldn't have otherwise and J was still 50% empty on most of the flights I took. My ripping them off actually gave them $$$ they would not have had.
yes, this ^^^^^^^^^ too
 

ketsuzei

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I guess QF are taking the view that the only ASA pricing that works (for them) is what you get when booking a standard ASA online.
There is at least some hope that they might be repriced at some stage.

Imagine that, the ability to use points and a reasonable amount of cash to book an ASA online! Somebody please wake me up if that ever happens. I'll probably be snoozing in an SQ lounge.
 

ketsuzei

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Well they got >$1k from me they wouldn't have otherwise and J was still 50% empty on most of the flights I took. My ripping them off actually gave them $$$ they would not have had.
Yes. For me it was often what transport economists would call "induced demand"--trips I might not have made otherwise that suddenly looked appealing--not a straight-out choice between full-fare J and a JASA. And I was sitting in a seat some yield manager had deemed worthy of being offered for a Classic award, and generally paying more for the privilege.

It's worth recalling that someone came up with the original idea of mASAs after thinking very carefully, and at a time when QF was seemingly much better run than it is today.

QF will see a lot less revenue from me going forward, especially internationally, but if they ever get their IT together enough to attempt any analysis, they'll probably just infer than I was indeed a short-cutting status-chasing mofo.
 

Jack3193

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Had my first serious look at the AA earning charts.

To hit OWE with AA you need to fly 66,666 miles on full fare Y or above, or 100 segments....100,000 miles on discount economy.....200,000 miles on deep discount economy. For status earning - F doesn't earn anymore than flying Y.

American Airlines AAdvantage Elite Qualification Requirements

Switching over to AA makes sense for a heavy OW partner flyer...........not so much for a dom flyer.
Interesting. The 100 segment rule actually means AA could make a lot of sense for a very frequent dom flyer, but only if they can get the 4 eligible sectors on AA etc. Eg if someone did 48 MEL-SYD Red edeal rtns plus 4 short AA sectors they would get to OWE with AA, but not even close with QFF.

I'm not sure AA necessarily makes sense for someone who flies mainly with OW partners. I think it really depends on where you're flying and in what class. For example, if you take MEL-HKG-LHR in business as an example, 3 rtns would leave you just short of OWE with either program, while 3.5 rtns would get you there with either. But getting the eligible sectors would be easier for most people with QF. If you're flying in F, QFF is almost always going to be better. But in Y, AA wins easily.
 

trippin_the_rift

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Saying that MASAs "add a significant cost without the revenue in return" is basically just saying "we've given up trying to price them properly".

They're not evil per se, and given the right circumstances I probably would have been prepared to make a substantially higher co-payment.
If I were QFF, I would have done one or all of the following:

- Made *ASA flights only bookable with in 7-14 days of travel (filtering out long term status planning - AND - keeping award inventory open for classic redemptions for longer)
- Increased points required to book *ASA by 10%
- Sliding scale *ASA cancel fees - 3,500 for now, 50% of price if cancelled within 48 hours of flying (thus keeping award inventory available or ODU and proving 'revenue' through increased burn from cancellations).
- Bring back online bookings for *ASA, but make it only available for Gold and above (thus giving a VERY compelling reason to want to keep status).
- Admit giving out DSC candy is doing more long term harm than the short term gain is worth.
- DSC to never apply to *ASA

This would meet all the QFF revenue objectives - and likely exceed revenue projections, all without kicking customers in the teeth.

Instead, my experience tell me members will now:
- Members that book *ASA will likely review which FF program their CC points are credited to
- Review their FF program objectives to see what other options are available
- Anyone with Lifetime Gold is at significant risk of churning loyalty programs, especially Plat and Plat One (losing top 1% of customers on the loyalty side is equal to around 5% of total revenue).
- With less CC points pooling into QFF, members are much less likely to: (a) retain QFF status , and (b) pay for QF flights
- Members spending points on *ASA that need those tickets to reach status are likely to focus their entire flight spend to either: (a) best flight of the day, or (b) which ever program works best for them now

Of course - I could be wrong ;)
 

Newk

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If I were QFF, I would have done one or all of the following:

- Made *ASA flights only bookable with in 7-14 days of travel (filtering out long term status planning - AND - keeping award inventory open for classic redemptions for longer)
- Increased points required to book *ASA by 10%
- Sliding scale *ASA cancel fees - 3,500 for now, 50% of price if cancelled within 48 hours of flying (thus keeping award inventory available or ODU and proving 'revenue' through increased burn from cancellations).
- Bring back online bookings for *ASA, but make it only available for Gold and above (thus giving a VERY compelling reason to want to keep status).
- Admit giving out DSC candy is doing more long term harm than the short term gain is worth.
- DSC to never apply to *ASA

This would meet all the QFF revenue objectives - and likely exceed revenue projections, all without kicking customers in the teeth.

Instead, my experience tell me members will now:
- Members that book *ASA will likely review which FF program their CC points are credited to
- Review their FF program objectives to see what other options are available
- Anyone with Lifetime Gold is at significant risk of churning loyalty programs, especially Plat and Plat One (losing top 1% of customers on the loyalty side is equal to around 5% of total revenue).
- With less CC points pooling into QFF, members are much less likely to: (a) retain QFF status , and (b) pay for QF flights
- Members spending points on *ASA that need those tickets to reach status are likely to focus their entire flight spend to either: (a) best flight of the day, or (b) which ever program works best for them now

Of course - I could be wrong ;)
and/or, regarding the last point, decide to stop chasing status (which is an ever so slightly silly thing for many of us) and merely trade points for classic awards. The very same classic awards that they would have been willing to pay extra dough for to turn into a MASA to get points and SCs. Revenue loss.
Who is ahead depends on how the customer and QFF differently value status.
I agree with the suggestions made in other threads and now this one that an uptick in cash component of MASAs may have been another way to deal with this. That said, I am far from running an airline and have no insight at all into any of the figures, so please treat my opinion as uninformed
 

hossein_au

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If I were QFF, I would have done one or all of the following:

- Made *ASA flights only bookable with in 7-14 days of travel (filtering out long term status planning - AND - keeping award inventory open for classic redemptions for longer)
- Increased points required to book *ASA by 10%
- Sliding scale *ASA cancel fees - 3,500 for now, 50% of price if cancelled within 48 hours of flying (thus keeping award inventory available or ODU and proving 'revenue' through increased burn from cancellations).
- Bring back online bookings for *ASA, but make it only available for Gold and above (thus giving a VERY compelling reason to want to keep status).
- Admit giving out DSC candy is doing more long term harm than the short term gain is worth.
- DSC to never apply to *ASA

This would meet all the QFF revenue objectives - and likely exceed revenue projections, all without kicking customers in the teeth.

Instead, my experience tell me members will now:
- Members that book *ASA will likely review which FF program their CC points are credited to
- Review their FF program objectives to see what other options are available
- Anyone with Lifetime Gold is at significant risk of churning loyalty programs, especially Plat and Plat One (losing top 1% of customers on the loyalty side is equal to around 5% of total revenue).
- With less CC points pooling into QFF, members are much less likely to: (a) retain QFF status , and (b) pay for QF flights
- Members spending points on *ASA that need those tickets to reach status are likely to focus their entire flight spend to either: (a) best flight of the day, or (b) which ever program works best for them now

Of course - I could be wrong ;)
Your argument is plainly logical, but I fail to see how current management at Qantas would possibly think along those lines? For running a successful business, bean counting is necessary, but it definitely is not sufficient. One needs vision, strategy, and implementation management. My personal belief is that Qantas is either exclusively run by bean counters, or the management is exclusively interested in bean counting. No vision, strategy, or implementation management in sight... Sad really... but I guess I'm merely stating the bleeding obvious.
 

marki

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Your argument is plainly logical, but I fail to see how current management at Qantas would possibly think along those lines? For running a successful business, bean counting is necessary, but it definitely is not sufficient. One needs vision, strategy, and implementation management. My personal belief is that Qantas is either exclusively run by bean counters, or the management is exclusively interested in bean counting. No vision, strategy, or implementation management in sight... Sad really... but I guess I'm merely stating the bleeding obvious.
Have to agree totally those managers should be tagged as loyalty bashing.
 

greenfish

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I've contemplated these changes for a few days. When I started weekly flights in 2011, I compared QF and VA - QF won hands down. Though VA have narrowed the gap, I still prefer QF.

My problem is I now fly a lot less - but am self-funding 8 return trips in Y to Europe (3 are mine) and 5 return trips to NZ (1 mine) + another 10 or so (2 mine) east coast domestic flights, between now and the end of the year. So circa $20K of flights, most of which would accrue to QF.

I was happy to top up my base earn with JASAs to retain status. Now I'll struggle to keep SG - particularly if I burn points on a classic award or two to the UK. On VA I'd be Platinum + partner gold with family pooling.

So what choice do I have? VA WP here I come....

In practice, I'll requalify WP using MASAs and the current spend will stay with QF (some of it is already spent, the balance is quite committed). But 2014 will be my last year of self funded QF travel, which is a shame.

MASAs helped negate Family Pooling. With MASAs gone, Family Pooling makes VA the obvious choice for family travel. Sorry QF.
 
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drron

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So I have just looked at our travel to see what effect it would have for mrsdrron requalifying WP.
First of all it is called simpler.Well the old SC earning table had 12 lines of SC earns.
On the QF website the new earnings tables have 65 lines.
Simpler.If anyone thinks it is I pity them.

Fairer?
So looked at the circle asia trip I have coming up.When booked it was going to earn 500SCs-D class.
Same trip if booked now for travel after 1/7 would earn 340-360 SCs.Difference is the BKK-KUL sector on GCM is 754 miles but I will be surprised if QF doesn't have it at 749 miles!

This trip is on QF ticket stock.Only 1 flight is post 1/7.KUL-BNE on 3/7.Now if it is going to be credited at new rates mrsdrron loses 60SCs so will fall short of requalifying by 50scs-I do judge it nicely!
Now the FAQs re the new system say this-
Q: What if I've already booked?
A: If you have flights booked (booked and ticketed prior to Sat 29 Mar 2014) for travel on/after 1 July 2014, you will earn the Qantas Points and Status credits that applied at the time you made your booking. The applicable Qantas Points will be credited to your Qantas Frequent Flyer Account approximately four weeks after the dates of the flight(s) taken.
Nothing about QF or partner airlines being different.Yet it has been implied that that might not be for partner airlines.However I have now put it on public record so if less SCs than planned Consumer affairs will be involved.Now that is FAIR.
 
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