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Grammar Discussions

dcm

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My son's 6th class teacher argued with my son that it was pronounced 'loo-tenant' American style because it was spelled (spelt) 'lieu'.


It is an odd one - I wonder what its origins are. Perhaps 'lief'?

The ABC refers to American military personnel at 'loo' and Australian/UK as 'lef'. Those journos over 45 anyway.
My understanding is that the origin is French and that the US pronunciation of loo is closer to the original than lef. Maybe has some connection with "in lieu of".
 

anat0l

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I've only heard forte too. But then, my friends speak Queen's English. :p
The incorrect pronunciation of "forte" is most likely perpetrated through English society corruption (includes other words and place names), coupled with the fact that pronouncing it the correct way would likely draw less attention to its meaning and intent of the speaker than the incorrect pronunciation.

As well, I think almost everyone who was musically educated in Australia has had the "incorrect" pronunciation of forte taught to them...but that is because forte in music (meaning 'loud') is taught to be derived from the Italian word which is - not surprisingly - pronounced "fore-tay" in Italian. So one could really argue who did we steal "forte" (standing for the word meaning a strong / strength) from - the French or the Italians?

What is with this "but" at the end of sentences?
And what's wrong with but at the end of a sentence?
Nothing but.....
"But" on the end of sentences seems to be a bit of recent grammatical 'sugar' and passing wit that essentially drops the adjective following 'but' either because it is implied or for witty effect. For example, "Their customer service has been anything but". Here the implication is that the service has been "...anything but awful / absent" (i.e. has not been 'customer service'), and strictly speaking would have completed the sentence correctly if explicitly stated. Of course, by leaving off the end after 'but', the reader is left to complete the sentence themselves, with a resulting witty and self-serving effect.
 

juddles

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My understanding is that the origin is French and that the US pronunciation of loo is closer to the original than lef. Maybe has some connection with "in lieu of".
Could the ¨lef¨ pronunciation be an active rejection of that French origin? The Second World War created a fairly strong anti-frog sentiment, especially within the armed services. The US never felt (suffered) as much in this regard.
 

medhead

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My musical education taught me to pronounce forte as for-tay. Really not sure how it is possible to suggest otherwise, unless the music teacher was rubbish.

For the record I have grades and such like for music, so I'm relatively sure my education was at least passable.
 

Anna

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Honestly, does anyone say "fort"
People seem to call it "Panadeine fort" even though it is spelled "Panadeine Forte" on most documents that I see. Other than that I say for-tay if I'm using that word.
 

Pushka

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I don't think there's an accent on the e in Panadeine Forte so different derivation?
 

get me outta here

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For the word forte to be pronounced 'fortaa', the 'e' needs an accent over it. So, in my book, Panadeine Forte is not pronounced with the double aa sound at the end.

Drug companies make up all sorts of words eg Cialis, that everyone seems to pron 'Seealis'.
 

anat0l

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I don't think there's an accent on the e in Panadeine Forte so different derivation?
There is no accent on the packet as far as I know. No idea where they derived it from, and I can't remember how the announcers pronounce it on their advertisements.

With no accent, the French pronounce 'forte' as fort and the Italians pronounce it as fore-tay. (In fact, Italians use no accents in their written language).

"Forte" in French primarily means strong; it is an adjective and is actually - as spelt - in the feminine form, i.e. used to describe feminine nouns. The masculine form of the same adjective is "fort", which is pronounced for (i.e. in French the final 't' is not pronounced unless the next word starts with a vowel sound). "Forté", which would be pronounced fore-tay (except with a very short 'ay'), doesn't appear to have any meaning whatsoever in French.

"Forte" in Italian primarily means strong but it has been frequently used in music to denote a passage to be played or sung loud (or loudly, as opposed to "piano" meaning softly).

Dictionary.com gives the etymology of "forte" meaning someone's strength to the French, therefore strictly speaking the correct pronunciation is the monosyllabic fort. However, if one is referring to the musical direction or annotation, it is intended to be pronounced as in the Italian and thus fore-tay. It then goes on to say that due to the increasing misuse amongst the younger generation and likely due to the cross from musical education, both pronunciations are now considered standard for conveying someone's strengths.
 

Buzzard

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For the word forte to be pronounced 'fortaa', the 'e' needs an accent over it. So, in my book, Panadeine Forte is not pronounced with the double aa sound at the end.

Drug companies make up all sorts of words eg Cialis, that everyone seems to pron 'Seealis'.
Maybe because after you have take Cialis you go and see Alice :D :rolleyes:
 

Warks

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I think the 'but' at the end of the sentence is a bit of cringe when you think of the bogan way of saying things like "I'm not going but". This was said by the same people who said 'aks'.
 

Julesmac

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As far as I'm aware (being a posh Melbournite;)) sticking a 'but' on the end of a sentence seemed to be a very Queensland habit. As in, 'nice day, but' ?
 

medhead

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Accents and pronunciation of forte really depends of whether you're Italian or French. I'll take the Italian.

"Forte" in Italian primarily means strong but it has been [-]frequently[/-] is used in music to denote a passage to be played or sung loud (or loudly, as opposed to "piano" meaning softly).
There fixed that for you.
 
D

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As far as I'm aware (being a posh Melbournite;)) sticking a 'but' on the end of a sentence seemed to be a very Queensland habit. As in, 'nice day, but' ?
Such ignorance! Everyone knows it's eh that goes on the end of a sentence........eh!

Now to argue the spelling/history of ey. I believe it's an abbreviation of hey so 'ey?
 

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