General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[MEL_Traveller]

John there is nothing self inflicted with the majority of those with dementia or mental illness. Their acute presentations were due to people like you inflicting lockdowns and social isolation upon them without any regard to their situations.

Sorry but your response comes across As being from someone who has no empathy for the plight of others and caring for only themselves. I know you are not like that But that is how many will think.

General lockdowns were not a part of any pandemic plans before 2020. they should once again not be a pert of any pandemic plan post covid.

I disagree. In the absence of vaccines the lockdown was an effective and equitable way to manage the pandemic. My understanding is that most commentators agree lockdowns were effective in the initial stages of covid management when other countries were experiencing overwhelmed hospitals and high death rates.

The question is ‘why’ did the government and chief medical officers need to impose lockdowns? Perhaps because if we look at the USA where covid management was left to the individual, it didn’t go so well

 

[drron]

I disagree. In the absence of vaccines the lockdown was an effective and equitable way to manage the pandemic. My understanding is that most commentators agree lockdowns were effective in the initial stages of covid management when other countries were experiencing overwhelmed hospitals and high death rates.

The question is ‘why’ did the government and chief medical officers need to impose lockdowns? Perhaps because if we look at the USA where covid management was left to the individual, it didn’t go so well

Saved a few lives from covid at the cost of a few more dying of other diseases. and quite frankly my limited observations suggested the latter outweighed the former as most of the Covid deaths that I saw and knew they were officially recorded as Covid deaths really were from the other diseases. We logged them all as covid deaths but when people die of those diseases and also have tested positive for the flu they are officially recorded as the other disease with flu as a contributing factor.

Then you take no account of the economic cost. how many businesses have closed. i know of several.
Nor do you take into account on our children's lose of education. How costly is that going to be in the future.

And the lockdowns prevented people going outside where we know covid transmission is less than indoors. So how many extra covid deaths and hospitalisations did our lockdowns actually cause.

PS. And look at Sweden where people were allowed to make their own decisions and covid deaths per 100000 population are in the middle of world figures.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Australia is probably more like the US than sweden. Bodies were piled up in makeshift morgues.

I certainly did not want to reach the point where ethicists were needed to determine who should get access to ctical hospital care and who shouldn’t. I think the long term effects of going there would have been worse.

We waited for the vaccines. They served their purpose, and still do. I think we did the best we could at the time.

 

[drron]

Sorry but you exaggerate the benefits and overlook the negatives.
Where were the bodies piled up in makeshift morgues in Australia. We were nowhere near that. I also don’t believe we are more like the USA.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Sorry but you exaggerate the benefits and overlook the negatives.
Where were the bodies piled up in makeshift morgues in Australia. We were nowhere near that. I also don’t believe we are more like the USA.

I think that’s right. We didn’t have the makeshift morgues because we had the lockdowns.

If we’d had the freedom of movement like the US, or didn’t catch it early - unlike Italy - we would have potentially followed the worst case scenario, not the best. Probably not something we’ll ever know.

 

[drron]

I think that’s right. We didn’t have the makeshift morgues because we had the lockdowns.

If we’d had the freedom of movement like the US, or didn’t catch it early - unlike Italy - we would have potentially followed the worst case scenario, not the best. Probably not something we’ll ever know.

Absolute rubbish.

 

[N860CR]

We are never going to agree.

Why do we spend millions if not billions on campaigns to save people from dying on the road. What's the national death toll? 1,500? 5,000?

Why are we throwing away money trying to save people from heart disease, diabetes, cancer etc but then say it's OK to die from flu. It's OK to die from covid.

It makes very little sense. These perceived freedoms people crave make little sense.

It’s hard to agree when you can’t get your point across.

You’ve still yet to provide a single workable explanation as to how we’re going to stop people dying from influenza and covid. You seem to live in a fantasy land where we can somehow eradicate illness. Simply not going to happen. That doesn’t make the world an evil place. It’s just fact.

There is nothing you or I can do that will stop this virus.

 

[JohnK]

What?

It seems to me that definition of lack of humanity and likely selfishness is those who only care about illnesses which they may catch from others, but no concern for those who are at great risk from developing other medical issues, sometimes as a direct consequence of lockdowns etc, or the exacerbation of their illnesses because of those same restrictions. And many of those illnesses having nothing whatsoever to do with anything they have done in their lives.

Drinking more alcohol is a choice. That's a dumb excuse for no restrictions.

Missing out on dancing and getting sloshed for 2 years. Big deal. Who cares? Learn to cope.

Please don't use the mental illness line. I've been suffering from severe chronic depression for 30+ years. No one cared. Now since Covid everyone cares because it's a convenient excuse.

We spoke to our then 3.5 year old daughter at the beginning of covid. We explained covid and how people are sick and we need to avoid them. We still spent time together walking every night for 60+ minutes. My daughter coped better than most adults. No harm at all.

Yes unfortunately some people suffered like elective surgery and even compulsory surgery. For that I'm truly sorry but these things happen during a pandemic.

We managed the pandemic poorly and continuing to manage it poorly. People are suffering. People are dying. The numbers with long covid are increasing rapidly. In 5-10 years time they are saying there will be upwards of 500K suffering. They will be a huge burden on our health system.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Modern CEO just now

Mr Bancel told a finance conference on Monday: 'I think it's going to be like the flu. If you're a 25-year-old, do you need an annual booster every year if you're healthy?

‘You might want to... but I think it's going to be similar to flu where it's going to be people at high-risk, people above 50 years of age, people with comorbidities, people with cancer and other conditions, people with transplants.’

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582434823791988737

 

[Oneworldplus2]

John, for you

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580281136097304577

 

[Pushka]

Drinking more alcohol is a choice. That's a dumb excuse for no restrictions.

Missing out on dancing and getting sloshed for 2 years. Big deal. Who cares? Learn to cope.

Please don't use the mental illness line. I've been suffering from severe chronic depression for 30+ years. No one cared. Now since Covid everyone cares because it's a convenient excuse.

We spoke to our then 3.5 year old daughter at the beginning of covid. We explained covid and how people are sick and we need to avoid them. We still spent time together walking every night for 60+ minutes. My daughter coped better than most adults. No harm at all.

Yes unfortunately some people suffered like elective surgery and even compulsory surgery. For that I'm truly sorry but these things happen during a pandemic.

We managed the pandemic poorly and continuing to manage it poorly. People are suffering. People are dying. The numbers with long covid are increasing rapidly. In 5-10 years time they are saying there will be upwards of 500K suffering. They will be a huge burden on our health system.

You really think all the serious illnesses we have discussed are caused by alcohol? Good god. And you talk of convenient excuses.

 

[andye]

Missing out on dancing and getting sloshed for 2 years. Big deal. Who cares? Learn to cope....

A small point but there is a reason that nearly all worldwide cultures have developed dancing. Humans have a great drive to enjoy life, fall in love etc.

It's easier to say if one is established in one's family and if dancing doesn't appeal for some reason

 

[JohnK]

You really think all the serious illnesses we have discussed are caused by alcohol? Good god. And you talk of convenient excuses.

Please don't cherry pick.

You can't blame people drinking more on lockdowns. Silly excuse.

There's a pandemic going on. Learn to cope. My 3.5 year old daughter understood better than most adults.

If that means that distancing, isolation, masks become a part of life then accept them and move on. Stop fighting against restrictions.

There's people suffering and others dying and we're justifying it all by saying it's OK we can't handle restrictions so let's just move on.

I say people going to work while they are sick is wrong and some are saying nothing wrong with it. Your bad luck if you catch cold/flu or covid.

If you're out and about and coughing or sneezing non-stop then you shouldn't be out and about. Simple.

Lockdowns cause deaths. But pandemics also cause deaths. Life is precious but we've chosen which life is more important.

 

[Pushka]

There's a pandemic going on. Learn to cope. My 3.5 year old daughter understood better than most adults.

News Flash. Restrictions have gone.

with respect to the cognitive development of 3-5 year olds, they cannot think from a complex perspectIve. That means that children at this age show centration of thought, meaning their focus is limited to one aspect of a situation or object. True some adults get stuck in that phase.

managing a pandemic is not a matter of implementing one thing and completely ignoring the impacts.

 

[drron]

Please don't cherry pick.

You can't blame people drinking more on lockdowns. Silly excuse.

There's a pandemic going on. Learn to cope. My 3.5 year old daughter understood better than most adults.

If that means that distancing, isolation, masks become a part of life then accept them and move on. Stop fighting against restrictions.

There's people suffering and others dying and we're justifying it all by saying it's OK we can't handle restrictions so let's just move on.

I say people going to work while they are sick is wrong and some are saying nothing wrong with it. Your bad luck if you catch cold/flu or covid.

If you're out and about and coughing or sneezing non-stop then you shouldn't be out and about. Simple.

Lockdowns cause deaths. But pandemics also cause deaths. Life is precious but we've chosen which life is more important.

Of course you can. I talked to many over my 2 years in Tasmanian hospitals over the pandemic. Many had not touched alcohol for years but when their support systems disappeared because of lockdowns they started to drink again.
There is evidence that in many alcoholism is genetic.

Genetics of Alcohol Use Disorder | National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA)

How do genes influence alcohol use disorder? Alcohol use disorder (AUD) often seems to run in families, and we may hear about scientific studies of an “alcoholism gene.” Genetics certainly influence our likelihood of developing AUD, but the story isn’t so simple. Research shows that genes are...

www.niaaa.nih.gov

 

[Princess Fiona]

Modern CEO just now

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582434823791988737

And those who work with the vulnerable.
Like me

 

[MEL_Traveller]

News Flash. Restrictions have gone.

with respect to the cognitive development of 3-5 year olds, they cannot think from a complex perspectIve. That means that children at this age show centration of thought, meaning their focus is limited to one aspect of a situation or object. True some adults get stuck in that phase.

managing a pandemic is not a matter of implementing one thing and completely ignoring the impacts.

Touché! I think it works both ways.

Adults think ‘restrictions have gone’ but are unable to see the bigger or more complex picture and work out that wearing a mask in high density situations, or maintain distance, can help prevent the spread of covid.

And if you prevent the spread of covid your education improves, medical outcomes improves, social networks improve.

All some adults see is the ‘end of restrictions’ and because no one is mandating it, they don’t have to do anything.

 

[JohnK]

News Flash. Restrictions have gone.

with respect to the cognitive development of 3-5 year olds, they cannot think from a complex perspectIve. That means that children at this age show centration of thought, meaning their focus is limited to one aspect of a situation or object. True some adults get stuck in that phase.

managing a pandemic is not a matter of implementing one thing and completely ignoring the impacts.

I'm sorry I do not agree and I think Australia is way off the mark.

This virus is not going away. Not unless they find a cure like they did for small pox.

In my opinion the virus is dangerous. Yes even <1% of people dying is very significant.

Here is my own little analogy. We spend millions if not billions to save lives on the road. Driver education. Numerous rules in place that need to be followed. We impose restrictions on speed. Impose restrictions on alcohol levels. Heavy penalties for disobeying road rules. What's the road death toll?

And now we have a serious virus and our way out is to end all restrictions and continue as if the past 3 years didn't exist. Is this plan going to reduce the already climbing death toll?

The right way out is to continue all possible measures such as distancing, isolation, masks etc. And if adults struggle to comprehend what's going on then educate them.

Some people here see the restrictions as unnecessary. I don't agree.

Some people here see death from cold/flu's, covid and other diseases as acceptable collateral damage. I don't agree.

Am I wrong? I don't think so. You may not agree with my opinion but I'm not wrong. And even if I was wrong it does not make your opinion or the path we are taking the right one either.

 

[serfty]

This thread is really not providing much value these days

Where's a total perspective vortex when you need one? (Anyone got some fairy cake?)

 

[Pushka]

https://www.news.com.au/finance/eco...s/news-story/961ba6276f9f33eb115209f573d97875

Should up the ante here.