Feet and shoes on Bulkhead?

[Moody]

Laws, and terms and conditions have nothing to do with it.

My point was that putting your feet on the bulkhead wall/pocket is not against the law and may or may not be allowed by the airline FAs, but there is another set of rules that distinguish us from the rest of the animal kingdom. .

The fact is, you think your opinion is more valid than anyone else's - there are several people who have said they think it's perfectly acceptable behaviour - and now you're stooping to insults (ignorant and ignoble, really?) rather than explaining just how someone putting their feet up on a surface you are neither going to eat off nor sit on affects you even slightly, and therefore how it's any of your business.

Based on this, I'm wondering how you deal with queues ... none of my business I suppose.

I'm guessing that's because as it patently isn't any of your business, and it's pretty hard to justify with anything approaching logic why you should be the ultimate arbiter of manners and etiquette, you've decided it's all too hard and are ignoring that all too salient point.

Society as a whole are the arbiters of manners and etiquette, and it does differ from country to country and even suburb to suburb. Sometimes these "norms" of behaviour are translated into laws (putting feet on seats on trains for example), and sometimes they form T&Cs (conform to directions from crew) and sometimes they are self-policed by society itself (e.g. - queues, dress standards, etc.).


But I take your point that people are different and I will check the safety card for excrement and tinea next time I am seated at the bulkhead.

 

[Rebekkap]

My point was that putting your feet on the bulkhead wall/pocket is not against the law and may or may not be allowed by the airline FAs, but there is another set of rules that distinguish us from the rest of the animal kingdom. .



Based on this, I'm wondering how you deal with queues ... none of my business I suppose.

If I jump a queue, that has a very obvious effect on other people, and is thus not remotely an example of what I'm talking about, which is behaviour you happen not to like, but that has no effect on you. I would never jump a queue.

Society as a whole are the arbiters of manners and etiquette, and it does differ from country to country and even suburb to suburb. Sometimes these "norms" of behaviour are translated into laws (putting feet on seats on trains for example), and sometimes they form T&Cs (conform to directions from crew) and sometimes they are self-policed by society itself (e.g. - queues, dress standards, etc.).


But I take your point that people are different and I will check the safety card for excrement and tinea next time I am seated at the bulkhead.

And nor have I ever suggested putting shoes worn outdoors on a bulkhead would be ok. I take my shoes off before I put my feet up wherever I am.

 

[medhead]

Obviously we've been to different parts of France - in Paris they're very well dressed and behaved on average I grant you, but when I was in Toulouse in January I saw more than an average amount of people dressed in tracksuit pants and behaving entirely inconsiderately on public transport.

Although nothing will invalidate your position of judging others based on their appearance, I'd prefer to "race to the bottom" by judging people on their more substantive behaviour - i.e. whether what they're doing actually has a negative impact on the people around them, and not just whether it's offending their sensibilities about how people should look.

And I can assure you that despite my propensity to put my feet (sans shoes) on bulkheads on longer flights, I have a great deal of self respect. In fact I'm more than secure enough to not care about people potentially judging me on very shallow grounds indeed!

Nice twisting of my post. Well done. The only judgement going on seems to be yours. It is also interesting that you would deny that the behaviour here does have a negative impact on people. If it didn't have a negative impact then they wouldn't post in this thread. That you don't think they are negatively effected, does not change the feelings of others. Those words consideration and courtesy are terribly inconvenient. It seems you don't care that this behaviour is insulting to other people. Fair enough, but there is no reason to attack people for feeling insulted. Self respect is a multi-dimensional idea, it is false to equate putting your feet on the wall as somehow standing up for your internal principles, when it is really about the image that one creates for others.

 

[Rebekkap]

Nice twisting of my post. Well done.

Ditto.

The only judgement going on seems to be yours. It is also interesting that you would deny that the behaviour here does have a negative impact on people. If it didn't have a negative impact then they wouldn't post in this thread. That you don't think they are negatively effected, does not change the feelings of others.

I'm not - and nor is anyone else - responsible for how other people feel emotionally. You're responsible for your own feelings, and how you choose to react to seeing someone with their feet up is not actually caused by the person with their feet up.

Those words consideration and courtesy are terribly inconvenient. It seems you don't care that this behaviour is insulting to other people. Fair enough, but there is no reason to attack people for feeling insulted. Self respect is a multi-dimensional idea, it is false to equate putting your feet on the wall as somehow standing up for your internal principles, when it is really about the image that one creates for others.

I don't find courtesy or consideration for others inconvenient at all. Nor do I feel putting my feet up is standing up for my internal principles. But as you said it shows no self respect to do so, I responded. Your projections about why people act the way they do are not necessarily valid.

It is false to equate someone putting their besocked feet up with insulting others. An insult is behaviour or speech directed at someone else. If you choose to feel insulted, that's your choice, but it's not caused by my feet.

 

[legroom]

Not addressing anyone in particular, my view on this subject is along this line.

There are books & schools on etiquette and manners in addition to what one may have been taught at home.

Most of the times, there are no written rules on how people should behave e.g. cover your mouth/nose when sneezing; avoid jumping queues; loud conversation in a confined public space; walking in public with in-door clothing; recognisable release of flatus (up & downstream) etc... etc...

If you are comfortable with what you are doing ..... despite what others are saying / looking away .... then go ahead and feel good / relaxed about it (camp #1).

At the same time, if you feel uncomfortable / upset / disgusted at some behaviour that you cannot / should not interfere with, then just ignore it and get on with your life (camp #2).

No, I am not sitting on the fence either.

I do belong in camp #2.

 

[dajop]

This thread has morphed from a discussion about someone with shoes on putting there feet against a pouch containing reading and other material on a short haul flight to generic discussion about people putting their feet against bulkhead walls in general being a reflection on declining standards of behavior in society. WTF?

I can see issues with the former, shoes, reading material and all that. But with socks only on a long haul flight - these flights are uncomfortable enough as it is, who's to begrudge people the opportunity to obtain some extra comfort by resting their feet on a bulkhead wall. There is much more anti-social behaviour than this that I witness and tolerate every time I travel. Is the desire for a little comfort, that really doesn't affect those around them, a sign of declining society?

 

[medhead]

This thread has morphed from a discussion about someone with shoes on putting there feet against a pouch containing reading and other material on a short haul flight to generic discussion about people putting their feet against bulkhead walls in general being a reflection on declining standards of behavior in society. WTF?

I can see issues with the former, shoes, reading material and all that. But with socks only on a long haul flight - these flights are uncomfortable enough as it is, who's to begrudge people the opportunity to obtain some extra comfort by resting their feet on a bulkhead wall. There is much more anti-social behaviour than this that I witness and tolerate every time I travel. Is the desire for a little comfort, that really doesn't affect those around them, a sign of declining society?

I'm discussing domestic flights not international long haul flights. If you wish to start a thread on other anti-social behaviour I'm sure it will be discussed. No doubt someone will try to tell you that your personal reaction is wrong.

 

[markis10]

Moderation team reviewing content, temp thread lock

 

[admin]

Moderation team reviewing content, temp thread lock

Some off-topic argumentative posts have been removed and I am now re-opening the thread.

Please stay on topic and resist engaging in petty arguments in a public forum. If such behaviour continues, we will take action against the perpetrators

 

[Alanslegal]

If I am flying whY (let alone any other cabin class) I will ensure that I am comfortable and if it means putting my feet (often wearing socks) on the bulkhead because it feels better for me, then I am guilty as charged. If I am caught wearing thongs and shorts in the F lounge, I would not deny it. What I would categorically deny is ever speaking too loudly in the lounge or the plane, pushing past people, creating a mess, or slurping on Neil Perry's pumpkin soup.

 

[burmans]

Please stay on topic and resist engaging in petty arguments in a public forum.

Good luck with that!. Some would suggest the whole topic is petty. I must admit I'm no great fan of feet on bulkheads but neither do I have any expectation that others will agree with my view, nor that the way to get my message accross is increasingly strident statements nor endulging in personal abuse because others dont agree with my argument.

The argument has been made that this is about societal standards/mores and etiquette. What I would point out is that our view on this are completely influenced by those we deal with, and we therefore make the assumption that our views are widely held just because those we deals with hold similar views. Taking this into a wider context this thread is a great example of one such perceived "societal" standards isnt quite as standard as we think. This is far from uncommon, once upon a time I might have been constantly amazed about this, not any more.

 

[legroom]

If I am flying whY (let alone any other cabin class) I will ensure that I am comfortable and if it means putting my feet (often wearing socks) on the bulkhead because it feels better for me, then I am guilty as charged. If I am caught wearing thongs and shorts in the F lounge, I would not deny it. What I would categorically deny is ever speaking too loudly in the lounge or the plane, pushing past people, creating a mess, or slurping on Neil Perry's pumpkin soup.

I would have 'liked' the post if the word 'often' is replaced by 'always'.

 

[wingspan]

If I am flying whY (let alone any other cabin class) I will ensure that I am comfortable and if it means putting my feet (often wearing socks) on the bulkhead because it feels better for me, then I am guilty as charged. If I am caught wearing thongs and shorts in the F lounge, I would not deny it. What I would categorically deny is ever speaking too loudly in the lounge or the plane, pushing past people, creating a mess, or slurping on Neil Perry's pumpkin soup.

I would have 'liked' the post if the words 'slurping on Neil Perry's pumpkin soup' were replaced by 'not slurping on Neil Perry's tsukemen'. Because if you're not slurping, then it's just not ramen.

 

[JohnK]

I really don't see how it's possible to read someone else putting their feet up nowhere near you as discourteous. I don't think you should put your feet up anywhere with shoes on, but with socks on, I don't see how it affects you or anyone else.

Nor do I think that relaxing some of the more ridiculous rules of etiquette that constrained people and kept class barriers rigidly enforced is a bad thing, or indeed catering to whatever you happen to think the lowest common denominator is.

Apologies we don't agree but it doesn't make my point any less valid.

It is not just about shoes, socks touching a bulkhead. Putting your feet up in public is totally wrong. Doesn't matter how you look at it. With or without socks.

Would you put your feet up at a job interview? No? Why?

How about in court? School? Police station? Waiting rooms?

I see people sitting alone in the 4 seaters in a full train carriage with the legs/feet up on the seat in front. Awful.

There was a guy in the QF BNE business lounge 2 weeks ago with bare feet on the chair in front of him near the coffee machine as you enter the lounge. Disgusting.

P.S. I also think guys that scratch their balls in public are rude and inconsiderate.

 

[burmans]

Apologies we don't agree but it doesn't make my point any less valid.

It is not just about shoes, socks touching a bulkhead. Putting your feet up in public is totally wrong. Doesn't matter how you look at it. With or without socks.

Would you put your feet up at a job interview? No? Why?

How about in court? School? Police station? Waiting rooms?

I see people sitting alone in the 4 seaters in a full train carriage with the legs/feet up on the seat in front. Awful.

There was a guy in the QF BNE business lounge 2 weeks ago with bare feet on the chair in front of him near the coffee machine as you enter the lounge. Disgusting.

P.S. I also think guys that scratch their balls in public are rude and inconsiderate.

Trouble remains its not a point but an opinion. I wouldn't put my feet up at a job interview because it implies relaxation and comfort and I want to show I'm alert . Probably not in court either for similar reasons. But that doesn't mean there are not other public situations where it might be reasonable for me to appear more relaxed. I'm likely to wear a suit too to an interview or to court, does that mean I should wear suits everywhere. It may to you but clearly many others disagree. So clearly for many/most people situations are relevant.

PS. I'm not in the feet up camp myself either but I really can't understand this need to hector others on their behaviour because of our/your view on what's good social etiquette.

 

[Alanslegal]

PS. I'm not in the feet up camp myself either but I really can't understand this need to hector others on their behaviour because of our/your view on what's good social etiquette.

And life is short, time is too precious to be spending time worrying about what other people do or do not do. Sitting in a plane fixated on someone's foot and doing nothing else, to me, is a waste of time when they could be relaxing, enjoying a movie on the IFE, reading a book or just chatting away with their seat buddy.

 

[get me outta here]

There are some things in life from which you just have to avert your eyes when you feel a sensitivity coming on.

 

[legroom]

And life is short, time is too precious to be spending time worrying about what other people do or do not do.....

So, I go on AFF instead

But I agree with you !

 

[Rebekkap]

Apologies we don't agree but it doesn't make my point any less valid.

It is not just about shoes, socks touching a bulkhead. Putting your feet up in public is totally wrong. Doesn't matter how you look at it. With or without socks.

Would you put your feet up at a job interview? No? Why?

How about in court? School? Police station? Waiting rooms?

I see people sitting alone in the 4 seaters in a full train carriage with the legs/feet up on the seat in front. Awful.

There was a guy in the QF BNE business lounge 2 weeks ago with bare feet on the chair in front of him near the coffee machine as you enter the lounge. Disgusting.

P.S. I also think guys that scratch their balls in public are rude and inconsiderate.

I don't think anyone reasonable would argue with the proposition that some situations require more formality than others. I'm happy to wear jeans to go to the shops on the weekend, but I wouldn't wear them to a formal wedding!

In the same way, a job interview or a court appearance demand a greater level of formality than an aeroplane.

I would not put my feet on a seat on the train - that (a) takes up a seat where someone could be sitting and (b) almost invariably involves shoes, which as has been pointed out previously could have anything on them, and then someone could get something on their trousers when they sat down later, which has a definite effect on them - unlike putting socks on a bulkhead.

I also wouldn't put my feet up on a chair in the lounge, again you're taking up an additional seat that way.

But both those situations involve an effect on others. The example of court etc is perfectly valid - in formal settings one would not want to give an impression of informality out of tune with one's surroundings.

I guess where I differ is that I don't think a flight is a formal occasion along the lines of a job interview or a court appearance.

 

[JohnK]

PS. I'm not in the feet up camp myself either but I really can't understand this need to hector others on their behaviour because of our/your view on what's good social etiquette.

So you are saying it is OK for me to burp and fart throughout a 9-10 hour flight?

If I am sitting in 23B/23J on a QF A330 I do not want to look at a persons feet at eye level on the bulkhead in front of me. And I shouldn't have to close my eyes or look away.

Please don't try to teach me anything about social etiquette. Behave like a human being and you will get on fine with most people.