FA Unilaterally Downgrading PAX from J to Y on Trans Tasman (Jetconnect)

[NM]

As I mentioned, I have not seen anything published that details the terms officially. The case as you describe could also have issues since the fare paid was to LAX and the price with a mix of economy and business would likely be pretty much as expensive.

As I understand it, the actual fare paid has nothing to do with the refund due for an involuntary downgrade. Its the published J fare on the day for the flight travelled, less the published walk-up economy fare that could have been purchased on the day of the flight. So in this case just for the MEL-AKL sector. The fact the OP was on a OneWorld Explorer makes no difference.

Do you have a link to a terms that details the official policy since the T&Cs seem lacking?

No, I don't have a link. This is how it was explained to me when it *almost* happened to me on a DONE4 flying BA LHR-HKG when they had a last minute aircraft sub that resulted in a reduced number of J seats. I was handed a Y BP at the boarding gate. I stood my ground, asked tough questions of the ground staff and eventually they found a J pax that missed the connection and I was given his seat. Of course there was no compensation for the aircraft sub from NCW to OCW (yes it was a while ago). Many of the J pax were complaining they booked the flight because it had NCW and were angry they got OCW seats. I was just glad to be in the J cabin instead of the "B" in economy seats they handed my at boarding. After that close call I made enquiring and the "compensation" policy was as described. I was told this is common policy amongst most carriers, but as most people don't know it, few actually ask/demand it and the airline's manage to get away with providing vouchers etc.

 

[oz_mark]

Many of the J pax were complaining they booked the flight because it had NCW and were angry they got OCW seats. I was just glad to be in the J cabin instead of the "B" in economy seats they handed my at boarding.

When an involuntary downgrade occurs due to operational reasons, the typical rebooking class in economy is 'B'. While the fare refund table linked from the Invountary downgrade policy only includes premium economy to economy, the rebooking class is 'B'.

 

[serfty]

I note there is no reference to Trans Tasman flights in that fare refund table.

(Also R class is being redefined as a mid range PE)

Interestingly enough, with BA's attempt to downgrade NM, he would have been entitled to 75% of "the cost of the ticket" under EU regulation 261/2004 (assuming that was in force at the time).

But of course, such a downgrade would have been documented well enough to substantiate any claim.

 

[harvyk]

For MEL-AKL, excluding taxes

The full fare Y fare is $1052
The D class business fare is $1072
The C Class business fare is $1202
The J class business fare is $1390

A refund from D-Y would be less than already offered, C-Y would be the same as offered

$150 would offer would fit in a refund from C-Y

Dave

May I ask where your getting these prices from? As I have just done a search on the QF website for QF25 for tomorrow morning, it still has Fully Flex tickets available $986 (inc taxes) or business fares for $1148 (nc taxes) (ok I admit I don't know what specific classes these are), Wednesday morning the highest cost of a fully flex for $641, the next step up in price is $1148 which is also a business class seat.

One could argue the size of the refund does not match what is available for purchase via the QF website.

 

[NM]

Interestingly enough, with BA's attempt to downgrade NM, he would have been entitled to 75% of "the cost of the ticket" under EU regulation 261/2004 (assuming that was in force at the time).

Actually, no. This was well before the EU regs came into play. Note my reference to OCW (i.e. cradle seats) subbed from NCW aircraft. I believe the EU regs came in around 2006 or 2007.

 

[Commuter]

When an involuntary downgrade occurs due to operational reasons, the typical rebooking class in economy is 'B'.

To me, one unusual aspect of this case is that it cannot be considered 'operational reasons' by most people's standard. So any discussions of the norm relating to involuntary downgrade due to operational reasons is not applicable, to my mind.

 

[Dave Noble]

May I ask where your getting these prices from? As I have just done a search on the QF website for QF25 for tomorrow morning, it still has Fully Flex tickets available $986 (inc taxes) or business fares for $1148 (nc taxes) (ok I admit I don't know what specific classes these are), Wednesday morning the highest cost of a fully flex for $641, the next step up in price is $1148 which is also a business class seat.

One could argue the size of the refund does not match what is available for purchase via the QF website.

Straight off of Expert Flyer. They are the Y2T, D2T, C2T and J2T fares for MEL-AKL excluding taxes


Dave

 

[medhead]

it is ex-gratia since they are not admitting that it happened but are offering it voluntarily and , according to the post, stated that they do not accept that it happened

Dave

Sorry this is a bit late, I've been away and relatively busy.

Looks like we have to agree to disagree about what is an ex-gratia payment. I certainly don't think it is a payment offered as compensation, in a case where Qantas say they are "forced" to offer compensation. I'm not sure how one can be forced to do something as a favour, as an act of grace.

 

[harvyk]

Straight off of Expert Flyer. They are the Y2T, D2T, C2T and J2T fares for MEL-AKL excluding taxes


Dave

Excuse my ignorance (not yet an EF member), but are these prices just a guide? or are they actual purchasable fares?
The reason why I ask is that it's all well and good stating that this is the fare prices which you should be able to get, and here are the fare prices currently on offer from the airline...

 

[Dave Noble]

Excuse my ignorance (not yet an EF member), but are these prices just a guide? or are they actual purchasable fares?
The reason why I ask is that it's all well and good stating that this is the fare prices which you should be able to get, and here are the fare prices currently on offer from the airline...

They are the actual QF fares excluding taxes for the route ; what would be available for purchase would be dependant on availability of D,C and J respectively

Dave

 

[notzac]

Excuse my ignorance (not yet an EF member), but are these prices just a guide? or are they actual purchasable fares?

Not purchasable; IMHO, EF has limited usefulness when searching for fares. Use the matrix instead (which won't cost you anything either).

 

[Dave Noble]

Not purchasable; IMHO, EF has limited usefulness when searching for fares. Use the matrix instead (which won't cost you anything either).

They sure are purchaseable; fares on EF are completely valid. Where ITA particularly has its benefit is in areas such as getting the tax information which EF doesn't show

There are fares shown on EF where a lot of effort can be needed to get ticketed ( such as YIF, CIF and FIF fares ) where the airlines selling make it hard to buy them since they would rather sell their own more restrictive fares

And if you use ITA ,

Searching for D class, the fare given is D2T at $1072 base
Searching for C class, the fare given is C2T at $1202 base
Searching for J class, the fare given is J2T at $1390 base

which by a stroke of coincidence happens to be exactly what I posted before


Dave

 

[notzac]

They sure are purchaseable; fares on EF are completely valid.

Dave, I didn't mean to say they weren't valid; what I meant was the fares listed in EF don't paint a complete picture and are therefore "not purchasable". As you've pointed out, the tax component isn't included - and some of the fares listed in EF are difficult to ticket - it makes far more sense to me to use the ITA Software Matrix site I linked to for finding fares.

FWIW, I use the matrix site to plan out an itinerary and then send the routing and fare construction line to my TA to get it ticketed.

 

[Dave Noble]

Dave, I didn't mean to say they weren't valid; what I meant was the fares listed in EF don't paint a complete picture and are therefore "not purchasable". As you've pointed out, the tax component isn't included - and some of the fares listed in EF are difficult to ticket - it makes far more sense to me to use the ITA Software Matrix site I linked to for finding fares.

As far as the situation regarding downgrade compensation the pre-tax rates are very appropriate since ( ex AU ) the taxes are the same whether in economy or business so the difference can be taken straight from the pre-tax rates

The difficult fares to ticket are the interesting ones though and the ones where EF can be v useful. If , for example, QF has a F fare from A-B and there is an Industry fare $1 more expensive, ITA is v unlikely to offer it , nor will QF offer it unless effort made to force it

I find EF and ITA complement each other; EF is very good for finding availability and very good for getting fare lists and ITA can be good for getting taxes and validating itineraries. Both have their benefits, but in general searching, I find EF a lot better and for specific detailed pricing off to ITA

Dave

 

[Mr Ed]

This thread has proved once and for all there are far too many legal eagles on this board. To all of you, become Politicians.

If anything, this thread has taught us all to stand our ground and strap ourselves in before any prissy FA can tell us to move and if she/he persists?
.
Get carried away by the hunky Australian Fedral Police.

 

[straitman]

This thread has proved once and for all there are far too many legal eagles on this board. To all of you, become Politicians.

Mr Ed,

Not so.

It just proves that the rules are extremely complex and that it is very difficult to have a detailed knowledge of all of them.
It also tells us that there are quite a few people here with a lot of knowledge and that they still cannot always get it right.

 

[drron]

This thread has proved once and for all there are far too many legal eagles on this board. To all of you, become Politicians.

If anything, this thread has taught us all to stand our ground and strap ourselves in before any prissy FA can tell us to move and if she/he persists?
.
Get carried away by the hunky Australian Fedral Police.

I did try.
What i leant was to use whatever system is available-ie the threat of legal action backed up by the willingness to do something such as a stat. deck can often be effective in getting a more desirable outcome if fighting a big company.Dont try it on with the Government though-they would not care how much of our money they spend fighting you.

 

[harvyk]

Mr Ed, most of us on this board have an idea on the T&C's of the various airlines so we get the most out of our flying (and points earning ) experience. This is often based on our own personal experiences, and given not even QF can uniformly enforce their own policies it shows that their enforcement is open to interpretation. Basically anyone can sign up to a FF account and fly from time to time and earn points, but we're (or at least me) on here primarily to learn how to work the system, and make our (sometimes limited) travel dollar spread much further. For me personally this has meant 5 OS trips this year, half of them in int J (which is something I hadn't experienced until this year).



Dave - You have to remember that a court is likely to go the path of least resistance, thus if you can show the court what the QF website charges for seats in each class (regardless of rules surrounding those fares, so that wouldn't exclude red-e-deals from the equation), and given that you can have a seat booked in the chosen class within 2 minutes, they are far more likely to go with you, than if QF show them a set of fares (eg the ones from EF) where you have to jump through hoops, and be "in the know" to get.

 

[dfcatch]

Only just read this thread now.

Shame that there is no update on the final outcome..??

 

[TonyHancock]

Only just read this thread now.

Shame that there is no update on the final outcome..??

Yes me too, it would be good to know what happened.