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Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

tgh

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leads to todays silly question.
How does one fly a 747 by the seat of one's pants ?
Are there any stand alone anaologue type intruments at all, or do all flight info systems rely on redundancy

A recent cruise on a brand new small ship saw an electronic wonderland on the bridge AND a full suite of analogue charts that were plotted and used.
Way up in front of the top sundeck (where nobody other than a nosy person might notice ) there was an old fashioned mag compass on a little binnacle
It was well hidden and I had to stand on a chair to read it.. but thought it interesting….
 
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jb747

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Why? Autopilot still seemed to be working. There’s a backup attitude indicator and speed scale, and we knew where we were. What more do you need?
 

serfty

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Emails/Texts show Boeing "talked" Lion Air out of Sim. Training for the Max.

Boeing Mocked Lion Air Calls for More 737 Max Training Before Crash
“Now friggin Lion Air might need a sim to fly the MAX, and maybe because of their own stupidity. I’m scrambling trying to figure out how to unscrew this now! idiots,” one Boeing employee wrote in June 2017 text messages obtained by the company and released by the House committee.
In response, a Boeing colleague replied: “WHAT THE F%$&!!!! But their sister airline is already flying it!” That was an apparent reference to Malindo Air, the Malaysian-based carrier that was the first to fly the Max commercially.
Doing simulator training would have undercut a critical selling point of the jet: that airlines would be able to allow crews trained on an older 737 version to fly the Max after just a brief computer course.
The communications include a 2017 email from Boeing’s chief technical pilot on the 737 in which he crowed to colleagues: “Looks like my jedi mind trick worked again!” The email was sent two days after the earlier messages expressing alarm about Lion Air potentially demanding simulator training.

Attached was a forwarded email exchange in which the person warned an unnamed recipient against offering simulator training for Max pilots, pushing instead for the computer-based course that regulators had already approved for flight crews transitioning to the Max from earlier 737 models.

“I am concerned that if [redacted] chooses to require a Max simulator for its pilots beyond what all other regulators are requiring that it will be creating a difficult and unnecessary training burden for your airline, as well as potentially establish a precedent in your region for other Max customers,” the Boeing pilot wrote in the forwarded message.
 
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oz_mark

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juddles

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I am upgrading my prediction (originally that the fleet would be grounded) to a new belief - that the 737-MAX will not be certified internationally during 2020.

I believe that the aircraft type will be certified to fly within the USA sometime in 2020. But not internationally. I believe that the physical airframes will be certified to fly in other places in 2021, but not as a "737 MAX". All those airframes parked whereever will need to get a huge software fix, and some significant hardware mods, before any country outside the USA will let them fly.

And to add yet an even more profound prediction ( I have NEVER been wrong), the 737 MAX Debacle will in future years be the recognized turning point where it is no longer a case of Boeing vs Airbus - it will become Airbus vs the rest of the world. Boeing has managed to kill its own very strong position in international airline sales.
 

oz_mark

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Could be right. Even in the US, I suspect second half of the year...

Simulator training might be a problem, given they seem thin on the ground for the MAX.
 

Must...Fly!

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The airlines will be agitating extremely hard for a return before June.They will not want another northern summer peak season without the MAX fleet.

Not that they have a choice. But you'd think the airlines with bigger financial clout would have been sniffing about over the past few weeks for any spare aircraft to lease for the summer...
 

Mogul

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I don't believe the MAX will be given FAA approval until the rest of the world approves it as well. The FAA has been partly responsible for the whole MAX issues and won't want to go out on it's own regarding certifying the aircraft, especially as it was last to ground it and that wasn't really forthcoming.

It will be either all in or none.
 

kelvedon

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I don't believe the MAX will be given FAA approval until the rest of the world approves it as well. The FAA has been partly responsible for the whole MAX issues and won't want to go out on it's own regarding certifying the aircraft, especially as it was last to ground it and that wasn't really forthcoming.

It will be either all in or none.
Then Boeing might be waiting some time. I can we’ll see some countries delaying their approval for political reasons, especially if they are the last piece in the jigsaw puzzle.
 

Mogul

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It would be a lot for one country not to certify if everyone has agreed at the same time to certify the aircraft. If the FAA go it alone it will make it far easier for certain countries not to certify it based on other motives.
Post automatically merged:

This whole process isn't just about scrutinising Boeing but all the FAA's around the world and they only have one chance to get it right.
 
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jb747

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It would be a lot for one country not to certify if everyone has agreed at the same time to certify the aircraft. If the FAA go it alone it will make it far easier for certain countries not to certify it based on other motives.
Post automatically merged:

This whole process isn't just about scrutinising Boeing but all the FAA's around the world and they only have one chance to get it right.
There are a couple of FAA equivalents who are more than big enough to hold out. The Russians and Chinese come to mind. The EU will take a lot of convincing too, especially as there are probably tariff issues involved in the politics of it all. And whilst it could be argued that politics should play no part in this, I'd expect that they are very hard to separate....

Questions that don't seem to have answers forthcoming:
1. What is MCAS really for? The story has been that it's to make the aircraft feel the same as previous 737s. If that's the case, then you could simply remove MCAS entirely, and fly the aircraft on a different endorsement. There is a cost to that of course, but it pales into insignificance compared to what this entire saga has cost.
2. Can the aircraft be certified at all without MCAS? If it can't, then is the aircraft actually certifiable at all?
3. Has the manual trim, as fitted to the NG onwards, been properly certified, or was it simply grandfathered? Is this system, as fitted, certifiable?
4. Why isn't there a separate, backup, electric trim system, as fitted to just about everything else?
 

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