Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

dajop

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If safety is the #1 priority, and you don't know the cause, is a grounding necessarily a bad thing when you've had two of the same type involved in catastrophic hull losses in the space of a few months?

Except this is the government of China. And whilst safety is no doubt part of the equation, as with everything between government of China and something related to the US, it is bound to be more complicated than a simple grounding because safety is #1 priority.

If it was the government of the UK or Canada that grounded the planes, then I think it would be easier to assert it was solely due to safety grounds.

Having said that, that means 20% of the worldwide fleet of the type is grounded.
 
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(I am a student pilot but have done stall training).
And the AF477 pilot also had done stall training and would, if alive now, think the pilot inputs on AF477 to be completely illogical.
Despite training and experience, humans still do stupid/crazy mistakes especially in situations which does not make sense. The cognitive loads in an emergency/situation which does not make sense can overload any cognitively competent human.

Not telling the pilots of the MCAS change has the effect of increasing that cognitive load even further because the aircraft auto trimmed nose down before their eyes when a normal 737 does not do that. That a simple switch might have saved them did not occur to them possibly because of cognitive overload

Humans perform well in normal situations, but do not perform well at all in emergencies or situations which do not make sense.
 
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Habitant

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I've been on six 737-MAX 8 flights in the last eight months and I'm surprised I'm still alive! /s

Serious crashes demand serious investigations. They should go through every single piece of hardware and software of the 737 MAX to see if there is a problem.

To the people thinking of cancelling your flights: you're still more likely to die on your drive to the airport than on your 737 MAX flight, by at least an order of magnitude.
 

Melburnian1

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An AAP report states there were no Australians on board, but as can be typical of many international flights, there were a huge number of nationalities who were passengers:

'...Passengers from 35 countries were aboard.

The dead included Kenyan, Ethiopian, American, Canadian, French, Chinese, Egyptian, Swedish, British, Dutch, Indian, Slovakian, Austrian, Swedish, Russian, Moroccan, Spanish, Polish, and Israeli citizens.

There were no Australians among them.

At least four worked for the United Nations, the airline said, and the UN's World Food Program director confirmed his organisation had lost staff in the accident...'

----------------

Given that for our small 25 million population, Australians travel more air kilometres than the median per capita worldwide, it's 'lucky' that none of our countrymen were passengers. (RIP to all who lost their lives).
 

Pushka

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So how do we tell if an aircraft is max. We are flying on several 737 800 in a few weeks time. Is the word MAX written next to the aircraft info?
 

dajop

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To the people thinking of cancelling your flights: you're still more likely to die on your drive to the airport than on your 737 MAX flight, by at least an order of magnitude.

I'm not entirely convinced by that. 350 aircraft, operating say 6 sectors a day (some might do less), in commercial service for 22 months. Lets say linear uptake since first entering service, that amounts to about 750,000 sectors flown by the aircraft type. So 1 in 375,000 sectors have crashed, and as each crash has resulted in loss of all souls on board, that means about 1 in 375,000 passengers have perished.

Take Melbourne Airport, for one example has 35,000,000 pax passing through it a year. It's not a big hub, so assume that 3/4 are start or end their journey there. Thats about 26,000,000 passengers a year, so at the same rate, that would be 70 fatalities travelling to/from Melbourne airport each year.

Of course a statistical analysis like this says nothing about causality. Just figures.
 

AviatorInsight

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So how do we tell if an aircraft is max. We are flying on several 737 800 in a few weeks time. Is the word MAX written next to the aircraft info?

My understanding is that Max or M is written somewhere. For example 7M8, expanded as 737 Max -8 variant.
 

OATEK

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While some may see the Chinese decision to ground the 737Max fleet there as questionable, it is not necessarily a wrong decision. QF grounded all A380s after QF32, but I seem to recall that other airlines chose no to. QFs decision was sensible, and I think the Chinese decision is sensible - 2 hull losses and hundreds dead from a brand new model (even if old underlying design) should not be ignored.

I am not a nervous flyer, often sleep through the big bumps that keep my fellow pax awake, but I would avoid the 737Max. Just as I did the 787s until the battery issue seemed settled.

As for the FR24 track details, you have to be a bit wary. How many ground stations do you think they have around Addis collecting transponder data? Even here in Sydney I often get messages asking if I would take a base station, as I sit right under where the aircraft turn right to go out over the Royal National Park, and they say the FR24 coverage is not great here. So I would be wary about ruling MCAS in or out based on an interpretation of the FR24 data, although others may have a different view.
 
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How does one know whether the plane is a MAX or not? Is it listed as part of the flight details?

RIP to those souls lost and those families now dealing with immense pain.

Yes Aircraft tracking apps identify them as such
Screen Shot 2019-03-11 at 12.55.31 pm.png

Also they have those "scimitar" winglets
Screen Shot 2019-03-11 at 1.04.25 pm.png
And the engines are bigger with chevron nacelles like the 787
 
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D

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Like any airline crash, this is absolutely devastating for the families involved and my heart goes out to them.

I flew on SilkAir recently from SIN to CNS but on the day I travelled, it wasn't one of this new model.

+1 and I are booked on Silk CNS-SIN and it's currently listed as a Max 8. Needless to say, I'll be keeping a very close eye on what SQ do in coming months and also what the investigations throw up, but I'm guessing there will be little outcome on both the Lion and Ethiopian crashes before we travel. If there is no relevant info, I'll be cancelling that flight.

So how do we tell if an aircraft is max. We are flying on several 737 800 in a few weeks time. Is the word MAX written next to the aircraft info?

This is what appears for my Silk booking on VA ...

Max 8.jpg
 

woodborer

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While some may see the Chinese decision to ground the 737Max fleet there as questionable, it is not necessarily a wrong decision. QF grounded all A380s after QF32, but I seem to recall that other airlines chose no to. QFs decision was sensible, and I think the Chinese decision is sensible - 2 hull losses and hundreds dead from a brand new model (even if old underlying design) should not be ignored.

The Chinese do know how to play the game.
 
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ozfflyer

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There is either a big problem here with the machine or a lack of appropriate training for flight crew for this type. There could be questions of the demand of skill required to successfully negotiate such problems.

This is not great for the 737 program and not great for Virgin.
no it's the lack of training. The pilots just needed to turn off the safety system & all would have been well.
 

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