ESTA US Visa Query

[carly]

Hello
I am visiting the US (New York/L.A) and Canada October this year with my partner.
We completed our ESTA Visa’s online, however I am second guessing my partner’s answers on one of the questions.
When he was 18 years old, he was arrested for Affray, he went to court and was put on a good behaviour bond for 12 months and paid a fine.
He believes he was given a criminal record.
There have been no re-offences and he is now 26 turning 27.
There was a question stating “have you been arrested or convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude” he answered No.
I have tried to contact the US embassy here in Australia, however am having issues just trying to get a hold of someone in the office to talk about this and get a clear definition of moral turpitude.
I am hoping another user on this site has had a similar experience and can shed some light on this situation for me.
I don’t want to travel all that way and have to send him home if immigration do not let him in over a minor offence almost 8 years ago.
Thanks
Carly

 

[carly]

ESTA US Visa Query [bond ~2007]

Hello

First of all apologies, I am new to the site and initally posted this in the discussion board area.

I am visiting the US (New York/L.A) and Canada October this year with my partner.

We completed our ESTA Visa’s online, however I am second guessing my partner’s answers on one of the questions.

When he was 18 years old, he was arrested for Affray, he went to court and was put on a good behaviour bond for 12 months and paid a fine.

He believes he was given a criminal record.

There have been no re-offences and he is now 26 turning 27.

There was a question stating “have you been arrested or convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude” he answered No.

I have tried to contact the US embassy here in Australia, however am having issues just trying to get a hold of someone in the office to talk about this and get a clear definition of moral turpitude.

I am hoping another user on this site has had a similar experience and can shed some light on this situation for me.

I don’t want to travel all that way and have to send him home if immigration do not let him in over a minor offence almost 8 years ago.

Thanks

Carly​

 

[Mark3000]

There are a lot of detailed threads on this. Search the forums for USA Criminal record. It seems the best option is to be honest but you need to start the process for a visa months in advance i.e. now for an October trip

 

[carly]

Affray charge & entering the US without a VISA.

Hello

First of all apologies, I am new to the site and initally posted this in the wrong place (twice!)

I am visiting the US (New York/L.A) and Canada October this year with my partner.

We completed our ESTA Visa’s online, however I am second guessing my partner’s answers on one of the questions.

When he was 18 years old, he was arrested for Affray, he went to court and was put on a good behaviour bond for 12 months and paid a fine.

He believes he was given a criminal record.

There have been no re-offences and he is now 26 turning 27.

There was a question stating “have you been arrested or convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude” he answered No.

I have tried to contact the US embassy here in Australia, however am having issues just trying to get a hold of someone in the office to talk about this and get a clear definition of moral turpitude.

I am hoping another user on this site has had a similar experience and can shed some light on this situation for me.

I don’t want to travel all that way and have to send him home if immigration do not let him in over a minor offence almost 8 years ago.

Thanks

Carly

 

[serfty]

I have moved this query to a more appropriate forum.

How long ago did you fill the online forms? There is no longer any mention of "Turpitude", moral or otherwise in the ESTA application; it's been like this for at least 10 months.

esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/esta.html

1) Do you have a physical or mental disorder; or are you a drug abuser or addict; or do you currently have any of the following diseases: *	Yes No
Chancroid Gonorrhea Granuloma Inguinale Leprosy, infectious Lymphogranuloma venereum Syphilis, infectious Active Tuberculosis
2) Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority? *	Yes No
3) Have you ever violated any law related to possessing, using, or distributing illegal drugs? *	Yes No
4) Do you seek to engage in or have you ever engaged in terrorist activities, espionage, sabotage, or genocide? *	Yes No
5) Have you ever committed fraud or misrepresented yourself or others to obtain, or assist others to obtain, a visa or entry into the United States? *	Yes No
6) Are you currently seeking employment in the United States or were you previously employed in the United States without prior permission from the U.S. government? *	Yes No
7) Have you ever been denied a U.S. visa you applied for with your current or previous passport, or have you ever been refused admission to the United States or withdrawn your application for admission at a U.S. port of entry? *	Yes No
If yes: when where
8) Have you ever stayed in the United States longer than the admission period granted to you by the U.S. government? *

 

[harvyk]

Check out the following for moral turpitude,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude

Now I am not a lawyer, however according to this it doesn't look like affray is a crime of moral turpitude. So therefore your partner was right in selecting No to the question.
Also be careful when speaking with the US embassy, and especially giving particulars, because you may flag yourself for a deeper inspection.

 

[eclectic_boogaloo]

Re: Affray charge & entering the US without a VISA.

As far as I'm aware, having a criminal record won't stop your partner from entering the US. However, he may have to apply for a tourist visa via the US Embassy rather than using the ESTA system.

But you'll have to contact the US Embassy/Consulate to be sure - nothing would be worse than being deported for 'lying' on your ESTA application, especially given how vague 'moral turpitude' could be.

 

[Dr Ralph]

I would be proactive about this and completely up front with the embassy now. This is not something you want to play around with. There are very serious consequences, including fines and an exclusion period from entering the US if you provide false or 'misleading' or 'incomplete' information. The defense of 'I didn't know' simply wont work.

 

[Dr Ralph]

Check out the following for moral turpitude,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude


Also be careful when speaking with the US embassy, and especially giving particulars, because you may flag yourself for a deeper inspection.

I AM a lawyer and this is NOT the approach I would recommend Carly takes. The 'burying your head in the sand and hoping everything will be OK' approach is an absolute receipt for disaster.

I would also strongly advise NOT to rely on Wikipedia. It's most definitely not a reliable source of legal advice.

 

[OATEK]

Re: Affray charge & entering the US without a VISA.

Hello

First of all apologies, I am new to the site and initally posted this in the wrong place (twice!)

I am visiting the US (New York/L.A) and Canada October this year with my partner.

We completed our ESTA Visa’s online, however I am second guessing my partner’s answers on one of the questions.

When he was 18 years old, he was arrested for Affray, he went to court and was put on a good behaviour bond for 12 months and paid a fine.

He believes he was given a criminal record.

There have been no re-offences and he is now 26 turning 27.

There was a question stating “have you been arrested or convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude” he answered No.

I have tried to contact the US embassy here in Australia, however am having issues just trying to get a hold of someone in the office to talk about this and get a clear definition of moral turpitude.

I am hoping another user on this site has had a similar experience and can shed some light on this situation for me.

I don’t want to travel all that way and have to send him home if immigration do not let him in over a minor offence almost 8 years ago.

Thanks

Carly

This quote from the Sate Dept web site probably explains it a little more:

"A conviction for a statutory offense will involve moral turpitude if one or more of the elements of that offense have been determined to involve moral turpitude. The most common elements involving moral turpitude are:
(1) Fraud;
(2) Larceny; and
(3) Intent to harm persons or things."

Have a look at this link as quite a lo of detail provided: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86942.pdf

 

[Boca68]

Hello
I am visiting the US (New York/L.A) and Canada October this year with my partner.
We completed our ESTA Visa’s online, however I am second guessing my partner’s answers on one of the questions.
When he was 18 years old, he was arrested for Affray, he went to court and was put on a good behaviour bond for 12 months and paid a fine.
He believes he was given a criminal record.
There have been no re-offences and he is now 26 turning 27.
There was a question stating “have you been arrested or convicted of a crime involving moral turpitude” he answered No.
I have tried to contact the US embassy here in Australia, however am having issues just trying to get a hold of someone in the office to talk about this and get a clear definition of moral turpitude.
I am hoping another user on this site has had a similar experience and can shed some light on this situation for me.
I don’t want to travel all that way and have to send him home if immigration do not let him in over a minor offence almost 8 years ago.
Thanks
Carly

The moral turpitude part is vague, but my understanding is that any crime that carries the possibility of a custodial sentence can be interpreted as a crime of moral turpitude. Also believe that US Immigration are fickle with this. Throw in the "of more than 12 month sentence" with the possibility of, according to US Law, not ours, you will find that your partners minor offence probably would come under scrutiny.

Now, they do not have access to this information at the point of entry, but they certainly can request it, at very short notice, from Australian Authorities. The ESTA application will only make sure you are not on any watch list.

I would certainly be taking Dr Ralph's advice and inform the embassy and apply for a visa. I doubt it will be turned down, but can never be sure. Also , the visa application is likely to take several weeks , so I'd do it asap.

 

[NM]

[Moderator Hat]
Multiple threads on the same topic have been merged here.
[/Moderator Hat]

 

[Boca68]

I have moved this query to a more appropriate forum.

How long ago did you fill the online forms? There is no longer any mention of "Turpitude", moral or otherwise in the ESTA application; it's been like this for at least 10 months.

esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/esta.html

In the "help" section Serfty, the FAQ basically has this...

Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?
AND
Have you ever violated any law related to possessing, using, or distributing illegal drugs?

This question refers to crimes involving moral turpitude - Such offenses generally involve conduct which is inherently base, vile, or depraved and contrary to the accepted rules of morality and the duties owed to persons or society in general. There are factors, such as the age of the offender or the date of the offense that may affect whether an offense will be considered a crime involving moral turpitude for purposes of the Immigration and Nationality Act.For further information refer to § 212(a)(2) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, 8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(2), § 101(a)(43) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, 8 U.S.C. § 1101(a)(43) and corresponding regulations in the Code of Federal Regulations

.

 

[harvyk]

The moral turpitude part is vague, but my understanding is that any crime that carries the possibility of a custodial sentence can be interpreted as a crime of moral turpitude.

I don't believe that is true, crimes of moral turpitude are defined as those which would go against a judgement of good character.

Now all this said, AFAIK none of us are immigration lawyers, and I would suggest that would be whom the OP should be speaking to first and foremost if there is any doubt. The reason why I suggest a lawyer over even the US embassy is that if the OP says the wrong thing to a lawyer, it won't put the trip in jeopardy, if the OP says the wrong thing to the US embassy it could be marked onto a file which will cause problems traveling to the US from that day forwards.

 

[opusman]

Not sure how accurate this website is (I just found it via Google) but it suggests affray is not moral turpitude:

Affray | Moral Turpitude

Other hits Google turns up also back that up: https://www.google.com/search?q="moral+turpitude"+affray

 

[serfty]

Fair enough, but, still, one is not answering that specific question.

In fact, depending on the 'Affray' circumstance, an answer of 'no to the "2) Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority? " could be completely legit.

 

[JohnPhelan]

It's true that "turpitude" is no longer mentioned in the ESTA question.

Instead, it's been replaced by an equally vague term - "serious harm/damage". Exactly what is the definition of "serious" ????

As in - minor / moderate / serious. Where are the lines drawn?

 

[dfcatch]

Re: ESTA US Visa Query [bond ~2007]

I think it clearly rules out many of the previously asked questions regarding "moral turpitude".

I read the new question as robbery/vandalism/assault etc.

Affray would depend on the circumstance IMHO.

*** Not legal advice.

 

[Boca68]

Re: ESTA US Visa Query [bond ~2007]

I think it clearly rules out many of the previously asked questions regarding "moral turpitude".

I read the new question as robbery/vandalism/assault etc.

Affray would depend on the circumstance IMHO.

*** Not legal advice.

I agree the question itself, on the surface, should rule out the moral turpitude upon reading it. But, if you read the help/faq section of the ESTA website, this is quoted as help for that particular question

This question refers to crimes involving moral turpitude - Such offenses generally involve conduct which is inherently base, vile, or depraved and contrary to the accepted rules of morality and the duties owed to persons or society in general. There are factors, such as the age of the offender or the date of the offense that may affect whether an offense will be considered a crime involving moral turpitude for purposes of the Immigration and Nationality Act.For further information refer to § 212(a)(2) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, 8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(2), § 101(a)(43) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, 8 U.S.C. § 1101(a)(43) and corresponding regulations in the Code of Federal Regulations

So it is still there in reality.

In my personal experience, many years ago (2003), my partner at the time had a previous DUI conviction from 1989 when she was only 19. 14 years previously. She decided to apply for the visa, trying to do the right thing. It turned into a bit of a nightmare. The initial response was that it was a crime of "moral turpitude" under the then definition. It appeared to begin with, they would deny the application. She had no other convictions or dealings with the police.

In the end, she managed to get the visa, after numerous and lengthy communications. It was approved 4 or 5 days before travel. I was within a couple of hours of cancelling the trip. In fact had already cancelled one hotel booking in Las Vegas due it having a 7 day prior cancellation condition.

 

[carly]

Re: ESTA US Visa Query [bond ~2007]

Hello

Thanks for your reply

I thought if a crime was commited 10 years or more ago you do not need to disclose it to anyone? A DUI conviction from 1989! I wouldnt think that would be an issue at all, shows how much I know.

I'm still in two minds about applying for a Visa or just using the ESTA - do you know if the ESTA is a live system, would he be declined automatically if they had suspicions?

Affray is different to assault, he didnt actually hit anyone, he was at a party and multiple boys were arguing/yelling , a few of his friends were done for assault but as he was just there he was only charged for affray.

Sorry, just thinking out loud here!