Downgraded from business class-AGAIN[Flight Change Revoked]

[williamsf1]

Doesn't it point to some kind of system issue within Qantas that it's computer systems aren't tracking and updating correctly with regards to sales?

Surely as soon as a seat is booked "upstairs" then the inventory will be updated so that both "upstairs" and "downstairs" know exactly what inventory exists instantly. I thought that's what computers did these days.

I would say this was more " human error" rather than system error .... ALTEA allows overbooking and it sounds like what has happened here...

 

[pjm99au]

*No tongue in cheek required - this is a very straightforward case of a pax trying to game the system and getting smacked down.

Ok I'll bite. Interested in why you consider a request to get on an earlier flight when faced with a delay by qantas "gaming the system". Surely most of us would feel entitled to ask in this circumstance and qantas offer this themselves when faced with this problem

"Smacked down" by qantas?? Hardly the OP had boarding passes issued and Qantas then revoked them. The question of whether it is a downgrade is muddying the instance of a less than stellar customer service experience to my mind.

 

[medhead]

Wow. Gaming the system by asking to change a flexible fare.

 

[Moody]

Ok I'll bite. Interested in why you consider a request to get on an earlier flight when faced with a delay by qantas "gaming the system". Surely most of us would feel entitled to ask in this circumstance and qantas offer this themselves when faced with this problem

The OP talked about using knowledge gleaned from AFF :-

I go to check-in desk and am told there are plenty of seats on the 16.35 then get sent to the service counter. While in the service counter queue I ring 131313 and after explaining my situation am directed back to desk 20 where the helpful agent rebooks us on the earlier 16.35.

"Smacked down" by qantas?? Hardly the OP had boarding passes issued and Qantas then revoked them. The question of whether it is a downgrade is muddying the instance of a less than stellar customer service experience to my mind.

In the chaos of trying to fill the earlier flight Qantas overbooked J and had to withdraw the "offer" for 2 (or more) pax. Not ideal but hardly worth commenting on.

 

[medhead]

The OP talked about using knowledge gleaned from AFF :-





.

No, they didn't. Not in the bit you quoted and the only reference to AFF knowledge was to defer to AFF knowledge in assessing this event.

 

[JohnK]

In the chaos of trying to fill the earlier flight Qantas overbooked J and had to withdraw the "offer" for 2 (or more) pax. Not ideal but hardly worth commenting on.

Nope. You are speculating that's what happened.

 

[Moody]

No, they didn't. Not in the bit you quoted and the only reference to AFF knowledge was to defer to AFF knowledge in assessing this event.

From post #62 (my bolding) :-

I was in the J lounge - 2 x J BP's in hand - feeling very pleased that I'd managed to get on the earlier flight - using the knowledge I had gleaned from this site.

To re-cap, the pax was in the Service Desk queue and decided to back a second horse by calling Qantas who then directed them back to another rep for their boarding passes for the earlier flight. Nothing wrong with this mild gaming of the system and whether the final outcome would have been any different had they waited their turn in the queue is a moot point .... BUT .... it seems possible to me that the too-many-cooks syndrome may have been partially to blame for the over-allocation of the J manifest. Once that happened it was odds-on that flow-forward pax would be the first to be flowed-back.

 

[Moody]

Nope. You are speculating that's what happened.

Does the "speculating" refer to my description of the re-booking process as "chaos" or the fact that J was over-allocated on the earlier flight or the fact that Qantas amended the flow-forward offer to be economy with points refund or that this whole affair is hardly worth commenting on?

 

[JohnK]

Does the "speculating" refer to my description of the re-booking process as "chaos" or the fact that J was over-allocated on the earlier flight or the fact that Qantas amended the flow-forward offer to be economy with points refund or that this whole affair is hardly worth commenting on?

We are only guessing what may have happened.

All we know is that Duffa had 2 business class boarding passes. For all we know a Chairman's Lounge, Platinum One or Platinum on later, delayed, flight asked to go on earlier flight when they arrived at airport and cause the downgrade.

Qantas is struggling to handle these situations. Issues occurring almost daily. Having the world's best yield management isn't helping.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

I was in the J lounge - 2 x J BP's in hand - feeling very pleased that I'd managed to get on the earlier flight - using the knowledge I had gleaned from this site.
20 mins later, I'm called to the desk and offered a downgrade to Y or a 3hr delay (but still in J, on the original 776, as pointed out repeatedly by other members)
I felt pretty disappointed about that.
But I didn't receive a satisfactory explanation as to why someone else was given my seats.

I don't really understand what was "unsatisfactory" about the explanation. There were too many people checked in for the flight. And provided people who were originally booked on the flight checked-in on time, then they'd be given priority (regardless of redemption vs. revenue).

How would you feel if you turned up to a flight, and checked in within the required timeframe, but were told "sorry, you're being moved to a later flight, because some people from a later flight took your seats"?

 

[RAM]

If QF hadn't offered the possibility of the earlier flight at all then the outcome would have been exactly the same, and this thread wouldn't even exist.

QF tried to help the OP, and as it turned out failed, but at least they tried, and the OP was no worse off than if they hadn't tried at all.

There are enough things QF do get wrong and do do badly that deserve our disapproval; I don't think we need to exaggerate every single situation in order to bash them just that little bit further.

There is a big difference to treating customers with openness and honesty vs deliberately misleading/deceiving. Anyone can make a mistake or an airline have flight delays but a developing culture of lying to customers will backfire for Q. This track has been chosen by AJ for many years (such as selectively allocating fuel surcharges onto QI from Deathstar) and the trickle down effect has worked its way around the Q world unfortunately.

• The Q manifest system does not allow duplicate boarding passes to be allocated.
• Being told there are plenty of seats, given 2 x J boarding passes to specific seats only to be relegated subsequently does not gel.

Doesn't it point to some kind of system issue within Qantas that it's computer systems aren't tracking and updating correctly with regards to sales?

Surely as soon as a seat is booked "upstairs" then the inventory will be updated so that both "upstairs" and "downstairs" know exactly what inventory exists instantly. I thought that's what computers did these days.

It would mean no flight security as manifest would/could be faulty and would lead to frequent flight delays with baggage offloading when discovered. The 'smell' test suggests the Q operator thought they could do a snow job and get away with it.

I haven't searched but I suspect we would have seen posts by the Q fans of VA downgrades from business. So not Q bashing just incompetent and dishonest practice being highlighted.

I don't really understand what was "unsatisfactory" about the explanation. There were too many people checked in for the flight. And provided people who were originally booked on the flight checked-in on time, then they'd be given priority (regardless of redemption vs. revenue).

How would you feel if you turned up to a flight, and checked in within the required timeframe, but were told "sorry, you're being moved to a later flight, because some people from a later flight took your seats"?

Cannot check people in to seats that do not exist, even though Q does seem to be trying to push the edge of the envelope for 'revenue' enhancement'.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

I believe what happened is 'your seats' ie boarding passes you were given on the earlier flight were actually seats belonging to pax that were already booked on that flight but hadn't pre-allocated seat numbers ie there would not have been a double up of seat numbers.

I don't believe that it was a case of you being confirmed in J on the earlier flight then subsequently bumped for someone more important.

The CSA at counter 20 doing the transfers had probably been shifting a high volume of why pax & possibly didn't pickup you were in J, which is easier to do than you might think particularly when you're under the pump.

Say it was a 30 J seat config & when they transferred you it oversold the J cabin by 2 pax so the flight would be showing 32 pax confirmed.

We are only guessing what may have happened.

All we know is that Duffa had 2 business class boarding passes. For all we know a Chairman's Lounge, Platinum One or Platinum on later, delayed, flight asked to go on earlier flight when they arrived at airport and cause the downgrade.

CL pax just don't turn up at the airport and find out then about the delay as they would already know about it because their PA's either would have already received a call from CL advising them of the delay and the new earlier flight they've been transferred to or if the PA uses an app like Tripit and received the delay notification they would've acted immediately and called their CL contact to get them rebooked.

I still believe Duffa x 2 being transferred caused the oversale and to rectify this the staff had to transfer them back to their orginal flight in their original class of travel.

I don't really understand what was "unsatisfactory" about the explanation. There were too many people checked in for the flight. And provided people who were originally booked on the flight checked-in on time, then they'd be given priority (regardless of redemption vs. revenue).

How would you feel if you turned up to a flight, and checked in within the required timeframe, but were told "sorry, you're being moved to a later flight, because some people from a later flight took your seats"?

That is precisely the point I am trying to get across to some people.

There is a big difference to treating customers with openness and honesty vs deliberately misleading/deceiving. Anyone can make a mistake or an airline have flight delays but a developing culture of lying to customers will backfire for Q. This track has been chosen by AJ for many years (such as selectively allocating fuel surcharges onto QI from Deathstar) and the trickle down effect has worked its way around the Q world unfortunately.

• The Q manifest system does not allow duplicate boarding passes to be allocated.
• Being told there are plenty of seats, given 2 x J boarding passes to specific seats only to be relegated subsequently does not gel.

It would mean no flight security as manifest would/could be faulty and would lead to frequent flight delays with baggage offloading when discovered. The 'smell' test suggests the Q operator thought they could do a snow job and get away with it.

I haven't searched but I suspect we would have seen posts by the Q fans of VA downgrades from business. So not Q bashing just incompetent and dishonest practice being highlighted.

Cannot check people in to seats that do not exist, even though Q does seem to be trying to push the edge of the envelope for 'revenue' enhancement'.

With the greatest respect RAM just about everything you have written above is complete and utter nonsense. What I have tried to explain to you is that you don't need to have a double up of seats in an oversale situation. Did you ever play musical chairs as a kid? What happens when the music stops and there are 2 seats left but 4 people standing?

• The Q manifest system does not allow duplicate boarding passes to be allocated.

As I said in my earlier post upthread that I have cut and pasted for your benefit, not everybody pre-allocates their seating so when Duffa x 2 was transferred to the earlier flight boarded passes they received would have been seats that belonged to passengers that were already confirmed on that flight in J but were not yet allocated so they would have received those seats when they checked in.

There is no double up of seating because when the legitimate J class pax turn up it would put them on standby because the cabin is now oversold.

If for some reason the whole J cabin had pre-allocated their seats prior to Duffa x 2 being transferred when the CSA went to transfer them it would be them that would be on standby because there is insufficient availability ie 32 into 30 won't go. Again no double up of seats. It would be obvious to the CSA then when the standby boarding passes printed out so Duffa could've been transferred back to his original flight prior to leaving the checkin counter.

• Being told there are plenty of seats, given 2 x J boarding passes to specific seats only to be relegated subsequently does not gel.

It gels for me. Did Duffa specifically tell the CSA when he initially enquired about an earlier flight that he was in business class? I don't recall him saying that in the OP (see below). In the absence of that information It's understandable the CSA assumed he was in economy unless he said otherwise, so when they said there are plenty of seats available they meant economy class seats.

I go to check-in desk and am told there are plenty of seats on the 16.35 then get sent to the service counter. While in the service counter queue I ring 131313 and after explaining my situation am directed back to desk 20 where the helpful agent rebooks us on the earlier 16.35.

 

[RAM]

CL pax just don't turn up at the airport and find out then about the delay as they would already know about it because their PA's either would have already received a call from CL advising them of the delay and the new earlier flight they've been transferred to or if the PA uses an app like Tripit and received the delay notification they would've acted immediately and called their CL contact to get them rebooked.

I still believe Duffa x 2 being transferred caused the oversale and to rectify this the staff had to transfer them back to their orginal flight in their original class of travel.
That is precisely the point I am trying to get across to some people.

Once he was issued with two valid business boarding passes, obviously based on that world class yield management system that Q have (thanks Red Roo), you reasonably expect to be boarding for those seats. As Red Roo so graciously informed us over-selling is standard practice by Q and they are good at it.

With the greatest respect RAM just about everything you have written above is complete and utter nonsense. What I have tried to explain to you is that you don't need to have a double up of seats in an oversale situation. Did you ever play musical chairs as a kid? What happens when the music stops and there are 2 seats left but 4 people standing?

Well based on what Duffa has reported, not your conjecture from a distance, does not match your assertions or assumptions.

As I said in my earlier post upthread that I have cut and pasted for your benefit, not everybody pre-allocates their seating so when Duffa x 2 was transferred to the earlier flight boarded passes they received would have been seats that belonged to passengers that were already confirmed on that flight in J but were not yet allocated so they would have received those seats when they checked in.

There is no double up of seating because when the legitimate J class pax turn up it would put them on standby because the cabin is now oversold.

Do you mean like the seats for the couple who were told they could fly the next day or be downgraded from business in LAX? Q did not apparently follow the rules you have just proposed in that situation? Inconsistency is obvious and I have twice witnessed this happen (to me and work colleague) only to demand to see the Q airport operations manager and subsequently see Q staff (in one case) and Q relatives (in other case) glaring at me as they walked back off the flight. That is the reality from real life experience not conjecture.

If for some reason the whole J cabin had pre-allocated their seats prior to Duffa x 2 being transferred when the CSA went to transfer them it would be them that would be on standby because there is insufficient availability ie 32 into 30 won't go. Again no double up of seats. It would be obvious to the CSA then when the standby boarding passes printed out so Duffa could've been transferred back to his original flight prior to leaving the checkin counter.

If Q decides to allocate seats to Duffa and partner and the vaunted yield mgmt system fails again it is not Duffa's fault. But to lie about the cause is unacceptable.

It gels for me. Did Duffa specifically tell the CSA when he initially enquired about an earlier flight that he was in business class? I don't recall him saying that in the OP (see below). In the absence of that information It's understandable the CSA assumed he was in economy unless he said otherwise, so when they said there are plenty of seats available they meant economy class seats.

I would assume (cough/u/me) that Duffa is as competent a traveller as you or I and when looking to get onto an earlier flight, especially after all the 100+ pages of the October downgrading debacle, would both identify himself to the operator and state that he is seeking to move a 'J' to the earlier flight. I am sure Duffa can resolve this point for us.

 

[Princess Fiona]

CL pax just don't turn up at the airport and find out then about the delay as they would already know about it because their PA's either would have already received a call from CL advising them of the delay and the new earlier flight they've been transferred to or if the PA uses an app like Tripit and received the delay notification they would've acted immediately and called their CL contact to get them rebooked.



Once he was issued with two valid business boarding passes, obviously based on that world class yield management system that Q have (thanks Red Roo), you reasonably expect to be boarding for those seats. As Red Roo so graciously informed us over-selling is standard practice by Q and they are good at it.




Well based on what Duffa has reported, not your conjecture from a distance, does not match your assertions or assumptions.



Do you mean like the seats for the couple who were told they could fly the next day or be downgraded from business in LAX? Q did not apparently follow the rules you have just proposed in that situation? Inconsistency is obvious and I have twice witnessed this happen (to me and work colleague) only to demand to see the Q airport operations manager and subsequently see Q staff (in one case) and Q relatives (in other case) glaring at me as they walked back off the flight. That is the reality from real life experience not conjecture.



If Q decides to allocate seats to Duffa and partner and the vaunted yield mgmt system fails again it is not Duffa's fault. But to lie about the cause is unacceptable.



I would assume (cough/u/me) that Duffa is as competent a traveller as you or I and when looking to get onto an earlier flight, especially after all the 100+ pages of the October downgrading debacle, would both identify himself to the operator and state that he is seeking to move a 'J' to the earlier flight. I am sure Duffa can resolve this point for us.

There is absolutely nothing in common IMO between Duffa's experience and the couple being downgraded at LAX. Duffa being re-booked on his original flight is not due to QF overselling the flight he was removed from.
I do not know what motivates you to relate the two threads.
Yield management have nothing whatsoever to do with Duffa's flight being overbooked and this has been explained clearly and logically by ozbeachbabe who has first hand experience of airport operations.

How do you know that the explanation given by the Lounge staff to the OP was a lie?

It seems that you have some serious issues with Qantas as a company and with their customer service but to continually accuse QF employees of lying on this forum does both them and yourself no favours.

 

[JohnK]

There is absolutely nothing in common IMO between Duffa's experience and the couple being downgraded at LAX. Duffa being re-booked on his original flight is not due to QF overselling the flight he was removed from.
I do not know what motivates you to relate the two threads.

The post from ozbeachbabe that RAM quoted suggests when Duffa was given those 2 seats in business class the cabin was oversold and in reality they were given the boarding passes of people who should legitimately be on that flight so they were downgraded or moved back to original flight.

Now if that is the rule that was applied for Duffa's flight why wasn't the same rule applied for EmilyP's parents flight? If we assume her parents were booked on that flight a long time ago and did not cause the oversold cabin why did they miss out on a seat as they were supposed to be on that flight legitimately?

Someone more important wanted a seat? Inconsistency? I guess we will never know but there is a common link starting to appear in all these stories and if you travel in premium cabins be prepared to be downgraded and then treated like second class citizens waiting for refund.

P.S. The quotes in your post and RAM's post are broken.

 

[Princess Fiona]

The post from ozbeachbabe that RAM quoted suggests when Duffa was given those 2 seats in business class the cabin was oversold and in reality they were given the boarding passes of people who should legitimately be on that flight so they were downgraded or moved back to original flight.

Now if that is the rule that was applied for Duffa's flight why wasn't the same rule applied for EmilyP's parents flight? If we assume her parents were booked on that flight a long time ago and did not cause the oversold cabin why did they miss out on a seat as they were supposed to be on that flight legitimately?

Someone more important wanted a seat? Inconsistency? I guess we will never know but there is a common link starting to appear in all these stories and if you travel in premium cabins be prepared to be downgraded and then treated like second class citizens waiting for refund.

P.S. The quotes in your post and RAM's post are broken.

I disagree there is nothing in common between Duffa being wrongly re-booked at his request on an earlier flight and someone being involuntarily downgraded on QFi due to overselling.

I'm a glass half full type of person and I don't see any common link between any of the recent stories on travellers in premium cabins.

 

[mannej]

The post from ozbeachbabe that RAM quoted suggests when Duffa was given those 2 seats in business class the cabin was oversold and in reality they were given the boarding passes of people who should legitimately be on that flight so they were downgraded or moved back to original flight.

Now if that is the rule that was applied for Duffa's flight why wasn't the same rule applied for EmilyP's parents flight? If we assume her parents were booked on that flight a long time ago and did not cause the oversold cabin why did they miss out on a seat as they were supposed to be on that flight legitimately?

Someone more important wanted a seat? Inconsistency? I guess we will never know but there is a common link starting to appear in all these stories and if you travel in premium cabins be prepared to be downgraded and then treated like second class citizens waiting for refund.

P.S. The quotes in your post and RAM's post are broken.

Considering we don't have the full facts behind both situations, it is a bit hard to draw a credible link between the two.

Well based on what Duffa has reported, not your conjecture from a distance, does not match your assertions or assumptions.

Sorry RAM, calling people up for posting conjecture is extremely rich considering the content of a lot of your posts on this and the LAX downgrade topic. The post from OzBeachBabe is from someone who has had industry experience in dealing with these scenarios from behind the screen. That knowledge is helpful in trying to determine an educated view on the topic.

 

[Duffa]

Did Duffa specifically tell the CSA when he initially enquired about an earlier flight that he was in business class? I don't recall him saying that in the OP (see below). In the absence of that information It's understandable the CSA assumed he was in economy unless he said otherwise, so when they said there are plenty of seats available they meant economy class seats.

I was in the J check-in queue (acknowledging that this is also for Silver, Gold etc) and had handed over my ID to the CSA while she was typing in my name. I didn't think I needed to say "I'm travelling in business class" a la DYKWIA, while she was getting up my details
So I can only assume that she was looking at the J manifest for a J passenger when she said,
"there are plenty of seats, but I can't book them on this computer for some reason"

 

[RB]

Maybe I don't fly enough. But ignore the rights & wrongs of the handling of the situations & ignore the rights & wrongs of drawing links between the 2 situations. Can someone please estimate how many J seats QF may have flown in the time between the 2 incidents? (EmilyP & this OP)

 

[Princess Fiona]

Downgraded from business class - AGAIN

Maybe I don't fly enough. But ignore the rights & wrongs of the handling of the situations & ignore the rights & wrongs of drawing links between the 2 situations. Can someone please estimate how many J seats QF may have flown in the time between the 2 incidents? (EmilyP & this OP)

Great question. Stats aren't my specialty but up until August 2014 QFi carried 477,000 passengers and QFd 1,864,000 passengers
http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/investors/trafficStats/august-2014.pdf