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Does Closing Beaches Make Any Sense?

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lovetravellingoz

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On the day I posted visiting the beach - we were at Stage 2.

The Government instructions on their website for Stage 2 was that people were advised to stay at home.
There is a big difference between the advice of one day, and the instructions on the next.

So, lots of luck finding all those instructions you claim I violated.
Regards,
Renato
Well you can't comprehend my posts as they are not on Fox News obviously. I posted what was available the day you went to the beach on the day that you did it. Having also heard the advice on the radio that day too when I logged on and saw you boasting of your beach visit I was somewhat surprised.

However even you are admitting hat you clearly are willing to ignore what you are advised to do. You knew you were advised to stay home, but chose not too anyway.

Stay home is obviously a concept you cannot grasp. Is News not covering NY? There are many there who now wish that had followed the stay home advice earlier.
 
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Himeno

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Well you can't comprehend my posts as they are not on Fox News obviously. I posted what was available the day you went to the beach on the day that you did it. Having also heard the advice on the radio that day too when I logged on and saw you boasting of your beach visit I was somewhat surprised.

However even you are admitting hat you clearly are willing to ignore what you are advised to do. You knew you were advised to stay home, but chose not too anyway.

Stay home is obviously a concept you cannot grasp. Is News not covering NY? There are many there who now wish that had followed the stay home advice earlier.
Clearly, News has messed with someones mind so much that they don't understand that government/medical "suggestions" and "advice" during this crisis mean "Do this, or we will have to force you to".
 

MEL_Traveller

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On the day I posted visiting the beach - we were at Stage 2.

The Government instructions on their website for Stage 2 was that people were advised to stay at home.
There is a big difference between the advice of one day, and the instructions on the next.
And there is the contradiction in your argument.

We were all 'advised' not to go out. Some heeded that but many thousands did not.

Because those thousands did not, we ended up with stage three.

So those of us that 'did the right thing' during stage two are now being made to suffer because of those that considered 'advice' did not apply to them.
 

Renato1

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As if getting a car serviced can guarantee that it will not break down. Well serviced cars break down or have other issues. Parts may be faulty, random faults can occur.

ie
1/ Recently in the bush my less than 12 month old fully maintained vehicle came up with a service fault stating to not drive the vehicle (I am sure you are aware that all modern vehicles are run via black boxes these days).

Now as I do a lot of remote travel and so understand that all vehicles can break down anywhere anytime I carry an OBDII reader and have the Software App on my mobile plus a good set of tools. So I was able to determine the fault and reset the car to run again.

Most people do not carry an OBDII reader and so they would have been calling for a tow truck.

2/ In Bosnia on my last international trip a sharp object embedded in the road punctured both tyres on one side of the car. Car only had one spare and so had to call for assistance as two new tyres were required. Nearest town was again 30 minutes away.


Cars are also involved in accidents. Even if you are blameless the driver of another vehicle may not be.

Theft. While you are enjoying the beach, a thief may take a shine to you car, or something in it.
Well, after 30 years of travelling around at nights with a telescope, I haven't had one breakdown.

And on the one in ten thousand chance that my car were to breakdown on the way to or in the middle of a paddock at night - well.........I'm not in the habit of hugging or kissing the RACV chap or tow truck driver that comes along.

And I'm pretty sure my fellow Victorian recreational astronomers wouldn't do that either.

My comment stands a totally nugatory ban on something with zero effect on coronavirus spread,
Regards,
Renato
 

MEL_Traveller

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My comment stands a totally nugatory ban on something with zero effect on coronavirus spread,
The police have no way of knowing your specific intentions or reasons for being out. So they will have to stop you and question you. That takes their time away from the people they really need to be tracking down and talking to. So yes, your 'harmless' activity is diverting resources away from stopping the spread of the virus.
 

lovetravellingoz

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This is a once in a century tragedy. At times like this each individual can choose to do what they can get away with, or they can choose to do what will help the community at large the most.

Pandemics are only overcome by community action and in working together. Each individual can choose to be a handbrake on that action, or to help it accelerate and succeed.

The role that each of us needs to play is different. For some of us it is the very boring and mundane, BUT extremely vital task none the less of "Stay home".

For some we are called on to assist infirm relatives, or friends or neighbours.

Others have had to sacrifice their jobs, and must be under huge financial stress.

For others is is staffing supermarkets, or hospitals, or testing labs... and if you role is the "Stay home " role which is vital in lowering the rate of contagion, then please also support these others with a smile and friendly manner. Don't cause a fuss as they are all under stress and are in the main working as hard as they can.

This also includes all the besieged call centres. So if you call up please bare in the mind the anger often directly unfairly at them.

This is a time to do your bit rather than to seek what advantages you the most.

So just work out what your bit is and do it to the best of your abilities whether it be small or large. Don't wait to be told, and don't just wait for government edicts.
 

Renato1

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And there is the contradiction in your argument.

We were all 'advised' not to go out. Some heeded that but many thousands did not.

Because those thousands did not, we ended up with stage three.

So those of us that 'did the right thing' during stage two are now being made to suffer because of those that considered 'advice' did not apply to them.
No contradiction at all.
The other poster claimed I broke Stage 3 rules in relation to leaving home, when plainly I had not.

And your analysis is incorrect because you are conflating a rule and a mandatory requirement.
At Stage 2 the advice was to stay at home as much as possible, and the mandatory requirement was to maintian 4 square meter space around one's self.

And a bunch of backpackers in Sydney and Melbourne broke that mandatory four square meter rule. You have no evidence that those backpackers weren't within walking distance of that beach and that they had failed to follow the first piece of advice - given that even now if they live near the beach they can go to it for exercise.
Regards,
Renato

The police have no way of knowing your specific intentions or reasons for being out. So they will have to stop you and question you. That takes their time away from the people they really need to be tracking down and talking to. So yes, your 'harmless' activity is diverting resources away from stopping the spread of the virus.
So, when I and others go and drive to an IGA at 9.30pm at night, or to a petrol station for essential supplies (so as to avoid other people), we can expect to all get stopped by Police and questioned about what we are doing.

Given that the number of recreational astronomers who would be travelling at night to undertake their super-safe activity (had it not been banned) would be minuscule relative to the numbers going to supermarkets and petrol stations, the amount of Police resources diverted away from questioning those supermarket and petrol station customers would also be minuscule - to the point statistical utter insignificance.
Regards,
Renato
 
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AIRwin

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I'm not in the habit of hugging or kissing the RACV chap or tow truck driver that comes along.

And I'm pretty sure my fellow Victorian recreational astronomers wouldn't do that either.
And I'm pretty sure the ABF officers who tested positive are not in the habit of hugging or kissing strangers either...
 

MEL_Traveller

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So, when I and others go and drive to an IGA at 9.30pm at night, or to a petrol station for essential supplies (so as to avoid other people), we can expect to all get stopped by Police and questioned about what we are doing.

Given that the number of recreational astronomers who would be travelling at night to undertake their super-safe activity (had it not been banned) would be minuscule relative to the numbers going to supermarkets and petrol stations, the amount of Police resources diverted away from questioning those supermarket and petrol station customers would also be minuscule - to the point statistical utter insignificance.
Regards,
Renato
You don't need to stop someone going to a supermarket because buying food is an essential item which is allowed. Someone driving out to a dark secluded spot should raise questions. And probably some detailed questions if the response to the officer was 'I'm out to look at stars'. Even if they stop one astronomer, that is one other person on the isolation list they could be following up instead.
 

stm1sydney

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Have there been any documented cases of community transmission of COVID-19 from being on a beach, or indeed from visiting a supermarket (where draconian physical distancing rules are now implemented - 10 people allowed in my local Coles every 5 minutes)? What percentage of total cases are these?
 

MEL_Traveller

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Have there been any documented cases of community transmission of COVID-19 from being on a beach, or indeed from visiting a supermarket (where draconian physical distancing rules are now implemented - 10 people allowed in my local Coles every 5 minutes)? What percentage of total cases are these?
Not sure. But I think that could be good evidence to support the rules :) If we did have community infection from those scenarios we'd need even tougher rules.
 

lovetravellingoz

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Have there been any documented cases of community transmission of COVID-19 from being on a beach, or indeed from visiting a supermarket (where draconian physical distancing rules are now implemented - 10 people allowed in my local Coles every 5 minutes)? What percentage of total cases are these?
Exactly what are you in doubt about? How many dead bodies do you need for proof?

Supermarket employees in Australia have tested positive for CV19.

If you are close enough to a CV19 positive person who is in their infectious phase then you are extremely likely to catch it. It matters not whether you are on a beach, supermarket, hospital ward or sitting on a couch at home.

This is known, this is happening and people are dying, having long term lung damage etc. This is why there are restrictions on social distancing, number of occupants within buildings etc.

Enough is now known to know that CV19 is highly contagious and easily transmitted.



It is also known that if you avoid contact that you will not catch it. If you are were an infected person was though you need to make sure you handwash as you may touch droplets from them and this become infected if you then touch your face.




The best advice is to when you are out is to just assume that everyone you meet is infected and to act in ways that they cannot infect you.

ie
  • Maintain at least a 1.5m gap - I actually seek more than that
  • MINIMISE your trips where there are other people (ie do not shop every day)
  • MINIMISE your trips in cars etc and things happen that may lead to unnecessary contact
  • Handwash regularly, and definitely after any trip out.
  • Quarantine and or wash everything you bring home

Remember the virus is spread by people. You can choose to not be the link in the people chain that allows it to spread.
 
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andye

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In my mind the most important thing is collective discipline
Once individuals start bending the rules according to how it suits them and their own assessment of risk , then the higher the overall chance of community transmission
We all need to do as we are told
I personally would encourage people (especially doctors) to think carefully about publically criticising government advice*
The better this is managed, the fewer patients will die, the fewer nurses will die and the earlier we can go to the pub (whichever motivates you most)

*I think you can criticise implementation (e.g. the cruise ship debacle). However, making it a party politics thing risks pushing under-pressure leaders into doing things for politics rather than science, macroeconomics and social cohesion
 

MEL_Traveller

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Please don't shout at me in bold letters. Please answer my question. I like evidence.
in this case the evidence is in the 'negative'. You don't actually want cases where it has been transmitted through close contact.

So it seems the new rules are working, and we have the evidence in the reduced rate of infection.
 

lovetravellingoz

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Please don't shout at me in bold letters. Please answer my question. I like evidence.
1/ I was not yelling. The bold were headings.

How much evidence do you need?

2/ Community transmission is known to occur. We have cases of community transmission here in Australia. With some of those cases how they exactly go infected is not known. The methods of transmission are well known.

3/ Supermarket employees have tested positive for CV 19. Ditto for other retail workers such as K Mart

You can wait for a study that may never happen, might come out in many months time, or you can look at the ample evidence that is available to form a reasonable conclusion.

If you are wondering should there be social distancing measures in our supermarkets, then the answer is yes. There is ample evidence that these measure are required. We all need to eat, and so supermarkets visits are needed. Therefore supermarkets need to have social distancing measures.


Personally if I arrive at a store that is not operating to my requirements of social distancing then I do not go in.


PS Draconian measure?
 

stm1sydney

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Australia's extreme restrictions on going out in public that are born of panic and don't even make biological sense, Canberra infectious diseases expert Peter Collignon says.

"You are safer outside than inside," he said. "I do not see how anyone's going to get his virus if they keep two metres away from someone and I don't see how anyone's going to get it if they sit on a park bench."

"... it made no sense to stop people walking on the beach, or pausing on the beach to rest. These are panic decisions not decisions based on data," he said.
 
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