Cultural Difference Impact on your Indifference?

[harvyk]

Is that right? So my actual experiences are only beliefs?

I grew up in Belmore in the 70's and 80's. Some of the things I have seen and heard are horrific.

One night a car full of youths pull up outside my place as I was walking home and ask for directions. So I give them directions and they ask me to go with them and show them. Yeah right. They were cruising looking for people to "bash".

I'll keep the rest to myself as people like you aren't interested in knowing anything that contradicts your own beliefs.

No one is dismissing your own experiences, but a sample size of one does not exactly make for great statistics.

Furthermore in your example you have used a belief of what they might be doing than even cold hard facts. Unless you have an actual media report stating that that's what they where doing, crusing around for people to bash.

 

[get me outta here]

Those stats are skewed because it is usually youngish males committing crime in general. The group referenced has a larger proportion of young males in their ethnic group. They are not particularly more crime prone. But they certainly stand out due to their colour and getting around in groups. They need help integrating as the police in MEL are aware and frequently state. It is politicians who use these stats to push their law and order and scaring the community approach to getting elected.

You can easily twist statistics to support a case. In your example above the Sudanese make up just 0.1% of the population yet make up 1.1% of the reported crime.

Have a look at these statistics. These were 4 years ago and they don't look good at all.

Prisoners

 

[JohnK]

No one is dismissing your own experiences, but a sample size of one does not exactly make for great statistics.

Furthermore in your example you have used a belief of what they might be doing than even cold hard facts. Unless you have an actual media report stating that that's what they where doing, crusing around for people to bash.

It's not a sample size of one. It's a sample size of 100''s and more.

I personally know of a number of gangs of youth cruising the North Shore looking for people to bash and also cruising the Cronulla area searching for waxheads to bash. The same group were also involved in multiple sexual harrassments. These were not isolated incidents. This happened every week.

I'm not tainting everyone with same brush but I do know that kids from certain backgrounds are more likely to commit crime. Just look at the background (not just place of birth) of those in NSW jails. The figures are disturbing.

 

[davidj]

The fact of the matter is there are certain ethnicities that as a percentage of that ethnic population, are more likely to commit crimes, aggravated burglaries, and the like.

People that are portraying Sudanese crime as a non issue, and then quoting stats that show Sudanese crime is only 0.16% of the total population and that Australians are more likely to commit a crime live in la la land, and obviously like the constant warm fuzzy feeling (or are really good at propaganda).

If one is trying to measure the % crime rate of an ethnicity, the base to use is the total ethnic population, NOT the total geographical population.

For Sudanese in Victoria, that equates to ~850 criminals out of a population of ~6,000. That's 14% of Sudanese having committed a crime.

For Australian born crime in Victoria, that's ~57,000 criminals out of a population of ~3,845,000 = 1.45% crime rate.

 

[dxwell]

Back to the original thread:

The man was gainfully employed in POM and appeared to be genuinely liking it

I like this. It is highly likely that this person will make a very positive impact on society and economy in that area.

There was a discussion that was completely missed in the media, but fully understood politically, that the migrants who came by boat via Indonesia were "economic refugees", from (comparatively) wealthy backgrounds and with education, means, and qualifications. These migrants were capable of paying thousands in travel and smuggler fees. This is very much the type of migrant that many 2nd and 3rd world economies need.

Contrast this to the 25.4 million* in refugee camps across the world who entered the refugee camps with absolutely nothing to their name and wait (I need a better word than "patiently") in the processing queue.

I feel embarrassed to write this as there is a complete "system" behind this "displaced people" movement that is never uncovered by the media (although the "Go back to where you came from" series enlightened), and is too complex to explain in a response on the AFF blog.

Figures at a Glance

 

[drron]

It's all there in the linked article, 0.1% of the population, 1% of the crimes. But also skewed by age apparently, as Sudanese is a younger population overall, and across the board younger people are more likely to commit crimes. But this only partly accounts for part of the difference in offending rates, certainly not accounting for all of the difference.

Isn't there an old saying about lies, damned lies, and statistics?

Except that most are worried by the thoughts of home invasions and street violence.For those crimes that minority makes up a lot more than 1%.As you say lies,damned lies and statistics.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I'm now back in communication and intrigued by the direction of this thread. To answer some of the questions, there was no motivation at all for this thread apart from an observation.

My observation has everything to do with culture. Those who spend time in PNG will know there are many layers of culture here and outsiders will always struggle being accepted. What I witnessed was testiment to an idea that these cultural barriers can be broken down.

My comment was not addressing lawlessness and was not really commenting on the Manus Solution itself. It was simply an honest observation that I found promising.

 

[dk4]

When it comes to interactions, humans are weird creatures:

When it is individual to individual, we often look for similarities - e.g. What is it that I have in common with the other person? How might I enjoy the company/experience/environment with them?

When it is group to group, we often look for differences - e.g. What makes that group of people divergent from my group? How is their collective behaviour/identity/lifestyle inconsistent with my group's?


Perhaps our tribal DNA has influenced our decision making process? Overall though, when we focus primarily on the similarities (in other people or groups), we can often have positive experiences, but conversely, when we focus primarily on the differences (in other people or groups), we can often have negative experiences. So it may be self-actuating behaviour!

 

[SuzieQ68]

My observation has everything to do with culture. Those who spend time in PNG will know there are many layers of culture here and outsiders will always struggle being accepted. What I witnessed was testiment to an idea that these cultural barriers can be broken down.

Very true. Although I've not spent time in PNG, I've spend quite a bit of time in northern Thailand and have tried to make an effort to integrate into both the Thai and Burmese cultures. This didn't happen overnight though, as a white westerner, you're kept at arms length for a period of time until, in effect, you pay your dues (which pretty much means embracing their culture, not bringing your own to their country/life). I don't think I will ever be completely accepted, but that's ok. I'm happy to just be able to get the opportunity to be a part of something different.

 

[drron]

I'm now back in communication and intrigued by the direction of this thread. To answer some of the questions, there was no motivation at all for this thread apart from an observation.

My observation has everything to do with culture. Those who spend time in PNG will know there are many layers of culture here and outsiders will always struggle being accepted. What I witnessed was testiment to an idea that these cultural barriers can be broken down.

My comment was not addressing lawlessness and was not really commenting on the Manus Solution itself. It was simply an honest observation that I found promising.

And to me the real point of your observation is that it should be more widely acknowledged.Pity we usually never get to hear these good news stories.

 

[Forg]

My observation has everything to do with culture. Those who spend time in PNG will know there are many layers of culture here and outsiders will always struggle being accepted. What I witnessed was testiment to an idea that these cultural barriers can be broken down.

Are your observations on local culture from the standpoint of someone who’s only a visitor; you spend a lot of time there, but you regularly escape?

Is it possible that they treat someone who’s “fully committed” a bit different?

 

[drron]

I'll think you'll find swanning_it "fully committed" being a wantok himself I think in the Buna region.

 

[odysseus]

Very true. Although I've not spent time in PNG, I've spend quite a bit of time in northern Thailand and have tried to make an effort to integrate into both the Thai and Burmese cultures. This didn't happen overnight though, as a white westerner, you're kept at arms length for a period of time until, in effect, you pay your dues (which pretty much means embracing their culture, not bringing your own to their country/life). I don't think I will ever be completely accepted, but that's ok. I'm happy to just be able to get the opportunity to be a part of something different.

Isn't it odd how the expectation is the exact opposite here?

 

[JohnK]

I don't think I will ever be completely accepted, but that's ok. I'm happy to just be able to get the opportunity to be a part of something different.

Australians are advised to respect local customs if travelling overseas and assimilate if thinking of moving overseas. But then we are tolerant of everyones differences when they come here and in fact bend over backwards to accommodate them.

I don't quite understand the logic.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Are your observations on local culture from the standpoint of someone who’s only a visitor; you spend a lot of time there, but you regularly escape?

Is it possible that they treat someone who’s “fully committed” a bit different?

Yes, I only spend a bit over half each year in PNG. But surely an observation can be made from anyone? The wantok culture is very strong here, mostly in a positive way, sometimes in a negative way, but it is binding. Wantok means one language, but the word is used in different contexts. A primary wantok is effectively a clan member from the same village (often a relative).

Go down the track a few kilometres and the people may still be of the same tribe, but may speak an entirely different language (not just a different dialect). They are treated differently to a clan member, but if people from different, but nearby villages travel to another province, they will then refer to all as wantoks. If two people from different provinces travel overseas, then they too will be wantoks, but within PNG, they would not (unless being referred to as a wantok with wider meaning of simply friend).

So the wantok relationship expands with travel, but the fundamentals of the expectations remain strong. For an outsider to be accepted does indeed require committment and I think that is what I witnessed in POM. A former refugee being accepted as he was committing himself to a life in PNG. (which is actually not such a bad thing, contrary to what some may think)

I'll think you'll find swanning_it "fully committed" being a wantok himself I think in the Buna region.

My +1 tells me she wonders when I'll leave for PNG and forget to come back, and yes, both my wife and I were cerimoniously initiated to the Andereba clan of Buna, which is a clan of the much larger Sauga tribe of Oro Province. I've also had a baby named after me, by "wan pela brata bilong mi".

 

[Forg]

Australians are advised to respect local customs if travelling overseas and assimilate if thinking of moving overseas. But then we are tolerant of everyones differences when they come here and in fact bend over backwards to accommodate them.

I don't quite understand the logic.

I think it's actually a form of superiority or arrogance; we think that we're easily able to accept others because we're more advanced, but that these other cultures are too backward to be able to do that.

Yes, I only spend a bit over half each year in PNG. But surely an observation can be made from anyone?

Of course; I had no knowledge of how long you spend there & whether (like some) you're so focused on your work when you're there that you don't have a lot of time to "live life" as it were.
I guess if it were me, any cultural observations would be heavily biased towards how I was treated; I guess I was asking whether the observations of someone who looked like living there permanently would be different to the observations of someone who's there a lot of the time but isn't looking like making a life there … if that makes any sense.​

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I think it's actually a form of superiority or arrogance; we think that we're easily able to accept others because we're more advanced, but that these other cultures are too backward to be able to do that.

I believe that is a mistake many people make when travelling. I thing many believe places like the good ol' US of A, are so advanced because many movies seem to make the US look good and let's face it they put man on the moon.

For me, I've learned that there is very little more advanced in the US and much of it is quite dislikable (interesting perhaps, but dislikable), whereas other places may have a reputation as being dislikable, but the opposite may be true.

First world culture has a great deal to teach third world culture, but it is also true that third world culture has a great deal to remind first world culture of.

 

[Forg]

Well, and of course the fact that two places that happen to be developing don't necessarily have cultures that are all that similar to each other!
But a lot of the third world does indeed seem to have built cultures based on everyone being dicks to each other as a part of survival. *waves heartily to the entirety of the Middle East*

Within the bounds of humanity of course, people being people two totally different human cultures are obviously a lot closer to each other than they are to the ranting xenophobic collections of tomatoes that exist in some parts of the world ...