Cultural Difference Impact on your Indifference?

[Deleted member 29185]

Recently, I experienced some cultural interaction which left me wondering about my own morals and also wondering about how our broader FFer community think.

This is definitely not a "right" or "wrong" thread, as I don't know which is right or which is wrong, but more just a general look "sideways" at our attitudes.

Many of you will know that I spend a lot of time in PNG. PNG is certainly a different culture to Australia (in fact PNG has many hundreds of different cultures within it's own borders, some fabulous ... some not so).

Previously, my travel has been to many nations worldwide, some of which I enjoy, some of which I have absolutely no desire in which to return. PNG amazes me and encapsulates me, for many more reasons than I can discuss here, but a recent episode profoundly left me wondering about my own ideals.

I was having a meal in POM with a friend of mine, originally from Manus Island when he noticed another man walking by. He called out to the man by name and wished him a good night. I was somewhat bewildered. The man he called out to was not your average Manus man. I asked him about this and he said he was a refugee, originally intent on venturing to Australia but ended up on Manus. The man had chosen to accept asylum in PNG and as such was now his wantok (community member). His interaction was genuine and sincere and despite the media reporting on problems on Manus, this indicated to me that acceptance was perhaps better than within the wider Australian community.

I've been a doubter of the Manus solution ever since I heard it. PNG (IMHO, which differs from the Gov't position) has an unemployment problem and dumping a lot of refugees in PNG, may present many problems. This very brief interlude has me wondering though. The man was gainfully employed in POM and appeared to be genuinely liking it. It also appeared that not only was he employed in POM, but he was accepted as a Manus man.

Curious.

Any other examples of how perceptions may not seamlessly integrate with reality?

 

[dajop]

I actually don't find this at all surprising. Once you get down to the individual level, most people do accept strangers in their midst. They may not like the group, the idea, the religion, whether it be refugees, foreigners, outsiders, muslims, GLBT, etc, but at the individual level acceptance can be strong. (Also if you take the outer suburban marginal electorate politics out of it - where much of the "outrage" is amplified by the (negative) leadership our radio shock jocks and politicians provide) and you will find most Australian very accepting of outsiders they know personally.)

If you look at what is happening in some rural communities,the experience is probably similar to what you describe in PNG.

 

[davidj]

I think what you're finding is the difference between media (and 'advocate') driven propaganda and what actually happens on the ground.

I fail to see how this is culture related.

 

[Forg]

I don’t know if I properly get the gist of the thread.
Is it to do with the specific case of Straya flicking a few lobsters at a developing country to make part of our immigration problem go away? I don’t think seeing one refugee now living in that developing country would make me think it wasn’t wrong.

HOWEVER; I am a lazy, greedy person. So while I see it as wrong, I can see that maybe someone thought it was the best way to allow me to continue living without significant effort or discomfort, as opposed to the situation where the world’s wealth & resources were distributed equally without armed people at borders.

 

[drron]

I think it has always been so.I have given the story of my grandfather here before.As with many of his generation he hated the "yellow"hordes.With a brother killed in the war and a son enlisted he had his reasons.
However a Chinese family moved in next door.between the properties there was an unused laneway.Within 2 weeks he and the father of the Chinese family had started turning that laneway into a market garden.They were inseparable.

 

[harvyk]

I'm not quite sure how this has to do with culture. I was half expecting a thread discussing how peoples eating habits in certain parts of the world are different to our western ways.

Personally I have some very choice words reserved for the media and the radio shock jocks who do nothing but screw up our very nice world, although I won't say them here as I want to continue visiting AFF.

 

[SuzieQ68]

I think what you're finding is the difference between media (and 'advocate') driven propaganda and what actually happens on the ground.

IMHO there is definitely a difference between media / 'advocate' driven propaganda and what really happens.

My personal experience (since 2012 and still current) is working with displaced people from Myanmar who live on a rubbish dump in Thailand. The amount of 'voluntourists' that come to the dump to photograph these people like they are a sideshow infuriates me. So many government funded organisations, 'charity' groups, religious groups and people just looking to make a fast buck from a photo book come to the site purporting to want to 'make a difference'. Many come, many never return.

The people that live on the dump were definitely doing it tough when we first started. They were displaced from their own country, living without status in Thailand, but just looking to stay safe, survive and make a life for themselves. They are proud people looking for a hand up, not necessarily a hand out. There was so much propaganda that came out over the years all seeking donations to 'help' these people - but I'm really not sure how much of the actual donation made it to them.

Fast forward a few years, the community that live on the dump are thriving. It took many years, but thanks to one particular humanitarian organisation and a local business, they now have access to fresh water, electricity, healthcare, status and employment. We have children in school, small cottage industries are popping up and the community is taking control of its own destiny. Many of the community are hoping to be able to return to Myanmar one day - and hopefully their new skills / education will serve them well. That being said, there are still those 'voluntourists' who still try and make it seem like their lives are miserable and they have no future. They can't seem to accept that things have changed and it's time to move on to another 'project'. It's still better to 'sell the drama'.

 

[JohnK]

And the opposite is to grow up with migrant children or children of migrants who think it's ok to steal cars, deal in drugs, stalk people with intent to rob and/or rape etc.

The media and civil libertarians have done a fantastic job or removing ethnicity from reporting of crime so these statistics are hidden from the general public.

So not everyone has the same wonderful feelgood experiences.

 

[Happy Dude]

Doesn't the OP's observation demonstrate that the offshore solutions can work? Small sample size, sure, but nonetheless inspirational for those still on Manus Is.

 

[dajop]

Doesn't the OP's observation demonstrate that the offshore solutions can work? Small sample size, sure, but nonetheless inspirational for those still on Manus Is.

I think it also suggests putting migrants and refugees into smaller communities works better too. It seems the further you get from Sydney and Melbourne the less issues there are on many levels. Whether it is Manus Island or Nhill ...

 

[harvyk]

<snip>
The media and civil libertarians have done a fantastic job or removing ethnicity from reporting of crime so these statistics are hidden from the general public.<snip>

Not true at all, crime stats still very much include ethnicity, as well as gender and are available to the public. If you wish to do a break down of crime stats by for example by people of Sudanese origin, then that's still very possible, for example -> Fact check: Do Sudanese people account for only 1 per cent of crimes committed in Victoria?

 

[JohnK]

Not true at all, crime stats still very much include ethnicity, as well as gender and are available to the public. If you wish to do a break down of crime stats by for example by people of Sudanese origin, then that's still very possible, for example -> Fact check: Do Sudanese people account for only 1 per cent of crimes committed in Victoria?

You can easily twist statistics to support a case. In your example above the Sudanese make up just 0.1% of the population yet make up 1.1% of the reported crime.

Have a look at these statistics. These were 4 years ago and they don't look good at all.

Prisoners

 

[drron]

Not true at all, crime stats still very much include ethnicity, as well as gender and are available to the public. If you wish to do a break down of crime stats by for example by people of Sudanese origin, then that's still very possible, for example -> Fact check: Do Sudanese people account for only 1 per cent of crimes committed in Victoria?

First of all the ABC really aren't a reliable fact checker.But even on those figures the South Sudanese are 0.14% of the population and commit 1.1% of all crimes so 8 times more likely to commit a crime.
But when it comes to home invasions they commit nearly 10% of these.
As to street brawls just how many get arrested?Very few even when police are present and attacked.

 

[dajop]

The media and civil libertarians have done a fantastic job or removing ethnicity from reporting of crime so these statistics are hidden from the general public..

I don’t think they’re hidden. Reference above discussion on Sudanese migrants, hardly hidden is it? Something that has been highlighted broadly in the media, and if not careful could contribute to bringing down the Andrews government.

It seems there are specific groups of immigrants (in Melbourne the Sudanese, in Sydney ithe Lebanese?) with higher than average crime problems, and typically the children of immigrants (who were either born overseas or born here) become a problem when they into teens and twenties moreso than than the adults.

That doesn’t mean all should be tarred with the same brush. Also it seems concentration of groups in particular areas causes more problems than when they are spread out.

Also one thing that will unite Melburnians (other than general disdain for Rugby league) is when Sydney based shock jocks and politicians start interfering and politicising an issue that perhaps is better off dealt with by police and government in a less public way by working with the problem community.

 

[travelislife]

And the opposite is to grow up with migrant children or children of migrants who think it's ok to steal cars, deal in drugs, stalk people with intent to rob and/or rape etc.

The media and civil libertarians have done a fantastic job or removing ethnicity from reporting of crime so these statistics are hidden from the general public.

So not everyone has the same wonderful feelgood experiences.

Yep all those immigrants making the streets unsafe...

Xavier old boys from prominent family charged over brutal finals assault

 

[harvyk]

First of all the ABC really aren't a reliable fact checker.But even on those figures the South Sudanese are 0.14% of the population and commit 1.1% of all crimes so 8 times more likely to commit a crime.
But when it comes to home invasions they commit nearly 10% of these.
As to street brawls just how many get arrested?Very few even when police are present and attacked.

My point wasn't so much a comment on the ethnicity of anyone group committing crimes, it was the fact that such statistics are still being kept which JohnK was stating that they are not.

 

[dajop]

and are what % of the population?

It's all there in the linked article, 0.1% of the population, 1% of the crimes. But also skewed by age apparently, as Sudanese is a younger population overall, and across the board younger people are more likely to commit crimes. But this only partly accounts for part of the difference in offending rates, certainly not accounting for all of the difference.

Isn't there an old saying about lies, damned lies, and statistics?

 

[Deleted member]

I think this is a topic which could quickly descend into a racist rant, and while i have my own opinions about crime and ethnicity , I see no point in airing them here. I have many friends and relatives from different ethnic backgrounds and it would be disingenuous of me to judge people based on race or creed

 

[burmans]

Not true at all, crime stats still very much include ethnicity, as well as gender and are available to the public. If you wish to do a break down of crime stats by for example by people of Sudanese origin, then that's still very possible, for example -> Fact check: Do Sudanese people account for only 1 per cent of crimes committed in Victoria?

I think you'll find JohnK much prefers beliefs over facts.

 

[JohnK]

I think you'll find JohnK much prefers beliefs over facts.

Is that right? So my actual experiences are only beliefs?

I grew up in Belmore in the 70's and 80's. Some of the things I have seen and heard are horrific.

One night a car full of youths pull up outside my place as I was walking home and ask for directions. So I give them directions and they ask me to go with them and show them. Yeah right. They were cruising looking for people to "bash".

I'll keep the rest to myself as people like you aren't interested in knowing anything that contradicts your own beliefs.