Competition into CBR hots up!

[Arthur Hodgson]

Interesting response from QF!

Flying additional jets on those routes (especially SYD-CBR) is going to swamp capacity and can hardly be profitable... And if they are going to put additional jets on the route, what will they do with all the new Crash-8's on order? :-|

When you read the article, it doesn't actually say that Qantas plans to increase the number of jet services between CBR and SYD (and vv). It refers to a total of 48 jet flights weekly, and that's what it is right now.

It's the Crash-8 flights that are being increased. Personally, I avoid them like the plague as I don't like to have to check my carry-on bags (and also I don't overly like being bounced around too much).

Carry-ons on commuter aircraft are not a problem in the US, where if it won't fit in the cabin, they green tag it and place it in the hold for you, and give it back to you as you step off the plane. Isn't that the whole point of only flying with carryons?

 

[Dave Noble]

Carry-ons on commuter aircraft are not a problem in the US, where if it won't fit in the cabin, they green tag it and place it in the hold for you, and give it back to you as you step off the plane. Isn't that the whole point of only flying with carryons?

Exactly the same procedure as used for the Crash 8 flights except that the tag isn't iirc green

Dave

 

[coco50]

Even better.

Was this just before JQ took over the route or quite a while back (ie. Ansett days) that QF offered this fun?

It was about 2002.

 

[coco50]

It feels more like flying and less of just a big bus. The FAs are friendlier and seem to enjoy engaging in a conversation with pax.

Of all my flights, these smaller planes have given me the most positive experiences to talk about.

I agree wholeheartedly. Having done most of my flying on Saab 340s with Kendell and Crash 8s with QFLink the personalised service and frequency of wine refills are now only a dream when you end up in 6B on a JQ A320 with a lot of holiday bogans

 

[Arthur Hodgson]

Exactly the same procedure as used for the Crash 8 flights except that the tag isn't iirc green

Dave

Never been offered this on any Qantas flight IMHO.

 

[Dave Noble]

Never been offered this on any Qantas flight IMHO.

for the crash 8s Ive been on ( primarily to/from CBR ) they give out "Premium hand luggage" tags at the gate; put it on the had luggage and drop it at the door of the plane. it is put in hold and at destination brought to the door of the plane for collection; works really well

Dave

 

[jakeseven7]

Never been offered this on any Qantas flight IMHO.

As per DN's comment, certainly happens on the Canberra Flights and has happened a couple of times on the Tas QFLink flights to me as well (generally when the plane is a bit busier and for whatever reason you can't fit it under the seat infront of you). Mine never fit in the overhead locker thats for sure.

 

[Yada Yada]

I do agree with you YY on the fact that by your company...

Err... I don't work for Virgin Blue, jakeseven7. I work for this company. I have nothing to do with any airline aside from being a regular passenger.

Now, back to the topic at hand...

I've flown SYD-CBR in QF's Crash-8s and I've also flown in Virgin Blue's new Embraer aircraft (BNE-CNS) and have to say that there is a big difference in comfort level. In my experience these are the differences:

• Smoother ride - The E-170 is much smoother in the air. The Crash-8's tendency to behave like a see-saw in turbulence is unpleasant.
  
• Noise levels - The props of the Crash-8 are an annoying drone compared with the relative quietness of the E-170.
  
• Cabin size - The cabin of the E-170 is bigger and therefore more comfortable.
  
• Time Saving - Boarding/disembarkation is quicker on the E-170 because:
  • You don't have to wait buckled up in your seat upon arrival while the props stop turning and then for the ground crew to secure the port side prop before disembarking;
  • Access to the plane is directly from the terminal with the E-170 whereas with the Crash-8 you have to do a bus transfer in SYD.

The time saving issue is important for me. I want to get on and off quickly and get to work/go home. I find the obligatory bus transfer in SYD a nuisance on Crash-8 services, and in inclement weather (and especially on cold Canberra evenings) aerobridge access is very welcome.

I guess if you are just joy-riding then the grittier experience of a Crash-8 may appeal, much in the same way a ride on a roller coaster may appeal. However if you are travelling for business, and I assume that business/govt travellers are the target market for both major airlines' CBR services, then these things probably do matter and will provide a point of differentiation.

 

[Dave Noble]

Access to the plane is directly from the terminal with the E-170 whereas with the Crash-8 you have to do a bus transfer in SYD.

The time saving issue is important for me. I want to get on and off quickly and get to work/go home. I find the obligatory bus transfer in SYD a nuisance on Crash-8 services, and in inclement weather (and especially on cold Canberra evenings) aerobridge access is very welcome.

There is no need to take a bus at Sydney now when arriving in from Canberra. Direct access to terminal these days

Dave

 

[Petch]

Canberra = CityFlyer = T3 SYD

Cheese & Crackers PLUS Wine is my favourite snack choice for flights under 2 hours -

• included in the ticket price on some QantasLink services
• less than $10 on Virgin Blue & Jetstar
• Missing as an option on Qantas

Bag Concierge on QantasLink is typical QF hit&miss. I have had mine confiscated just prior to walking up the stairs, then had to wait for it to be delivered to a baggage carousel on arrival, instead of handed back on deplaning.

 

[Arthur Hodgson]

Bag Concierge on QantasLink is typical QF hit&miss. I have had mine confiscated just prior to walking up the stairs, then had to wait for it to be delivered to a baggage carousel on arrival, instead of handed back on deplaning.

Yes, that's what I was talking about in my previous post.

That's why I don't fly anything other than Jets when I fly Qantas.

 

[Hvr]

However if you are travelling for business, and I assume that business/govt travellers are the target market for both major airlines' CBR services, then these things probably do matter and will provide a point of differentiation.

I'm in the target traveller profile noted above and I prefer the Dash 8. More leg room than a jet and generally friendlier service.

 

[Yada Yada]

I'm in the target traveller profile noted above and I prefer the Dash 8. More leg room than a jet and generally friendlier service.

Although I guess you have not yet tried the E-170?

 

[jakeseven7]

Although I guess you have not yet tried the E-170?

I'm sure Ansett/Kendell used 170's all those years ago...? if they are the same then they are extremely similar to Dash-8s on the inside. EDIT: Sorry i may be thinking of something else : bedtime!.. (Yes CRJS... lol)

YY do you know what the thinking is on using the Embraers? Will they be more low cost/regional or will they be a part of overall Virgin II trying to move closer to QF? - I ask because they burn more fuel and take longer to turn around than the Dash-8s... so any velocity advantage can be negated by this... Just interested, doesn't feel very 'low cost'.

 

[Evan]

doesn't feel very 'low cost'.

Made in Brazil Cheap to buy.

Its like everything you need to look at the overall costs of operation including purchase and depreciation, MA etc. I am sure they looked into the costs carefully, or you would hope so.

The Dash-8's are good for lots of services, some may say not CBR but work really well into regional services i feel.

I don't mind the Dash-8's as a plane, i always feel safe on them and within reason comfortable.

E

 

[Yada Yada]

I'm sure Ansett/Kendell used 170's all those years ago...? if they are the same then they are extremely similar to Dash-8s on the inside. EDIT: Sorry i may be thinking of something else : bedtime!

jakeseven7 - yes, must have been something else. The Embraer 170 was certified in February 2004 so it is a relatively new commercial aircraft.

YY do you know what the thinking is on using the Embraers? Will they be more low cost/regional or will they be a part of overall Virgin II trying to move closer to QF? - I ask because they burn more fuel and take longer to turn around than the Dash-8s... so any velocity advantage can be negated by this... Just interested, doesn't feel very 'low cost'.

My understanding - from what has been posted here by crazydave98 - is that the Embraers are being introduced to expand the existing VB fleet, not to create an off-shoot low cost or regional operation.

The E-Jets do a few important things for VB:

• They enable better matching of capacity to demand. B737's can be moved off sectors where demand is lower and put onto trunk routes where existing capacity is tight.
• They provide a means of expanding the network by operating to regional towns that cannot be serviced by B737's.
• They enable operation of shorter sectors more profitably such as SYD-CBR and with more frequency.

The other neat thing is that they can also "fill in" for B737's on trunk routes when required, e.g. at quieter times of the day/night/year without any degradation in the level of service offered to passengers - they fly as fast and high as a B737 and have a range long enough fly almost anywhere in Australia.

A number of posters in this thread have indicated that they'd rather fly in a Dash-8 than a jet. I frankly don't believe this to be respresentative of the travelling public. I've flown in both and the difference is stark both in terms of cabin space/ambience, and in the air. For me, comparing a Dash-8 with an E-170 is a bit like comparing a Hyundai Getz with a Honda Euro. I know which one I'd prefer to travel in, even on shorter sectors. On longer sectors, it's not even a contest.

It will be interesting to see how things pan out.

 

[oz_mark]

"fill in" for B737's on trunk routes when required, e.g. at quieter times of the day/night/year without any degradation in the level of service offered to passengers - they fly as fast and high as a B737 and have a range long enough fly almost anywhere in Australia.

A number of posters in this thread have indicated that they'd rather fly in a Dash-8 than a jet. I frankly don't believe this to be respresentative of the travelling public. I've flown in both and the difference is stark both in terms of cabin space/ambience, and in the air. For me, comparing a Dash-8 with an E-170 is a bit like comparing a Hyundai Getz with a Honda Euro. I know which one I'd prefer to travel in, even on shorter sectors. On longer sectors, it's not even a contest.

CBR-PER in a Dash-8? Bring it on I say :mrgreen: :shock:

 

[dajop]

CBR-PER in a Dash-8? Bring it on I say :mrgreen: :shock:

Yeh why not? CBR-ADL-CED-KGI-PER. It could just work, would only take 9 or 10 hours.

 

[jakeseven7]

A number of posters in this thread have indicated that they'd rather fly in a Dash-8 than a jet. I frankly don't believe this to be respresentative of the travelling public.

It will be interesting to see how things pan out.

Oh I completely agree that the public would make this same discrimination if they
1) cared enough to even realise what they are flying to make the comparison and
2) DJ do a good enough job marketing the difference and therefore making them awar - their recent marketing has been off the mark and complicated, so hopefully they turn it around.

However, I did read on a post previously that I cannot find now that DJ will not be focussing on trying to compete with QFLink/Rex/Regionals much at all and will use the ERJs (as per your point) primarilly to pull capacity back on routes where they are having trouble filling seats or can't justify an additional 737 service (e.g. Tas) thereby enabling the 737 to pick up another denser slot (e.g. Syd/Bris).

I also agree it will be interesting to see how they roll out, but I don't think there will be as many 'new' regional routes as many people are hoping for.