compensation for missed flights due to travel agent error

[Travel Guru]

I would first try the travel insurance company with regard to the clause relating to compensation for missed flights due to 'travel agent error' however, my guess is they would hand ball that back to the travel agent and not pay out on it.

Having said that most travel agents should be covered by professional indemnity insurance whereby they can claim the costs back they are out of pocket from their insurance company should they have to shell out for new airfares for their client because due to their own errors or omissions. This may well depend on what state or territory the agent is in ie QLD.

Like everyone else above I guess I'm curious as to when you first showed up at the airport on the 24th January to checkin. A common problem when flights depart in the wee hours of the morning ie in your case 0010 on 25th January is people turning up say at 2200 on 25th January to checkin for a flight not understanding the concept of actually having to turn up on the evening of the 24th.

Working in Darwin I see this regularly as would people in Perth, Honolulu, Singapore etc.

Look I'm sure there are many people on this forum, even platinum FF's who would be the first to say they've missed flights under these circumstances.

If people find themselves in a situation I would exhaust all avenues before forking out money for new tickets ie call the travel agent, your travel insurance company to see if they can sort the problem out first. The more reputable the airline the more likely they are to assist getting you on another one of their flights.

Failing that they may be able to endorse your ticket over to another airline for uplift. If holding a paper ticket the flight coupons are stamped "endorsed to XYZ airlines". These days where the majority of tickets are electronic the original airline would need to write out a FIM (flight interruption manifest) for you to give to the new airline in lieu of a flight coupon.

I would try and sort it out in this order:

a) Travel insurance company
b) Harvey World Travel - contact the head office in Sydney or QLD State office if you reside in Brisbane re the agent making a claim on their agency's professional indemnity cover.
c) If both of the above wipe their hands of it I would call the QLD Law Society and ask for a referral to a solicitor who may handle his type of claim. Some legal firms have a one off fee of $77.00 for your first consultation which may be all you need to get the advice you want.

I'm sure a solicitor could point you in the right direction re your next course of action whether it be the Small Claims Tribunal or Consumer Affairs (ACCC? now).

You owe it to yourself and your bank balance to exhaust all the above options before writing it off as a $7000.00 mistake.

I wish you all the best with getting it sorted and look forward to hearing the outcome.

Cheers OBB

I'm curious why you think the agent should accept the entire liability, given that the airline rang and received the pax's mobile number, shouldn't they accept some of the liability for not contacting the pax?

Don't get me wrong, i'm not having a go at what you wrote, it was interesting, and the agent could have easily covered themselves by sending one email to the client advising them, but in the end, its not entirely the agents fault as previously discussed.

I would highly doubt Vero will cover this circumstance, I think you'll find any coverage for missed connection pertains to those who are travelling for an unmissable event (such as a wedding, funeral etc), not for those who simply turn up late and miss their flights.

Despite what you're suggesting, agents don't claim their errors on insurance, they wear them, taking them from their bottom line, so I dare say it'll be a long fight trying to get any money from HWT.

TG

 

[ozbeachbabe]

TG - I guess it's a question of who has ownership of the booking. If the agent initiated the booking it still belongs to them unless responsibility
is handed over to the airline then any action then becomes their responsibility and therefore up to the airline to contact pax.

That's the first instance I've heard where the airline contacts the agent for details to contact the pax. They're really treading in murky waters because they agent could then say because they did that it then becomes China Airlines' problem.

Usually what happens is the airline generates any sked changes back to the agent end of story. If that agent can't get in touch with the pax and
it isn't necessarily their fault if they can't (after making all reasonable attempts to do so) the only hope is if pax happen to reconfirm and are told then. Pax do go 'no comms' on holidays and forget to check emails etc.

This scenario has really opened up a pandoras box and highlights why some people prefer to deal direct with the airlines as it would seem the more people who get involved in the food chain the more likely events like this happen.

I know it's easy in hindsight to say the airline should have really tried harder to get them on another airline but I guess the ideal situation is to stand firm and say you don't have the money to buy another ticket and ask them to endorse the ticket over to airline XYZ.

Sometimes you need to tell the airline what they need to do. In this day and age with airlines making staff cutbacks and outsourcing their checkin to third party companies often airport staff would have no idea what options are available and will just want to fob pax off and tell them to buy another ticket rathen than take ownership of the problem.

If people do find themselves in the situation where they have to buy another ticket, ask what the return fare would be as I would say 9 times out of 10 it would be cheaper than paying what sounds like a full economy one way fare - $7,000 bucks is astronomical for an LA to Brisbane one way flight for 2 people.

Like with most things it's easy to point the finger but until you get all the facts and hear both sides of the story you can't really lay blame one way or the other.

 

[Alanslegal]

I still feel an hour change in flight time does not warrant any travel agent to drop everything and warn the affected passenger/s - especially on an international flight where most people know to get to the airport like at least 2 hours before, let alone LAX where the recommended time is to be there 3 hours before departure.

Sure it would have been good service on the TA's part to at least try and make a courtesy call, send an sms or even an email to advise of the changes - but it is my opinion that I believe the TA felt a 60minute change wasn't super critical given that the traveller will get to the airport more than a couple of hours before anyway and still be within a reasonable time to be checked onto their new flight.

I would guess if the flights were changed to a day earlier, then I bet the TA would have tried their damn best to make sure the travellers were advised.

I guess it will be very little consolation but the $7100 may be in fact one very expensive lesson learnt.

 

[Alanslegal]

TG - I guess it's a question of who has ownership of the booking. If the agent initiated the booking it still belongs to them unless responsibility
is handed over to the airline then any action then becomes their responsibility and therefore up to the airline to contact pax.

The question of the ownership of the booking is easily and well defined. IMO the booking owner must definitely fall upon the travelling passenger and in no way, the travel agent. The travel agent after all is merely in a simple agency relationship with the passenger.

Simple agency relationships mean the TA is instructed by the passenger to enter into a binding travel contract between the passenger and the airline. The agent makes bookings on the passenger's behalf and once confirmed, the owner of the ticket belongs to the passenger. The passenger receives all the legal and equitable rights to that contract for travel.

The fact that a travel agent was used is irrelevant, because if I may put it this way, they simply act as a contact person, a person who can enter into agreements with instructions from the passenger and can also receive updates on their behalf - Its almost like a nominee.

The airline has no responbility other than to advise the contact person (in this case the travel agent) of the flight changes - which appears to have done so in this instance.

 

[Travel Guru]

TG - I guess it's a question of who has ownership of the booking. If the agent initiated the booking it still belongs to them unless responsibility
is handed over to the airline then any action then becomes their responsibility and therefore up to the airline to contact pax.

That's the first instance I've heard where the airline contacts the agent for details to contact the pax. They're really treading in murky waters because they agent could then say because they did that it then becomes China Airlines' problem.

Usually what happens is the airline generates any sked changes back to the agent end of story. If that agent can't get in touch with the pax and
it isn't necessarily their fault if they can't (after making all reasonable attempts to do so) the only hope is if pax happen to reconfirm and are told then. Pax do go 'no comms' on holidays and forget to check emails etc.

This scenario has really opened up a pandoras box and highlights why some people prefer to deal direct with the airlines as it would seem the more people who get involved in the food chain the more likely events like this happen.

I know it's easy in hindsight to say the airline should have really tried harder to get them on another airline but I guess the ideal situation is to stand firm and say you don't have the money to buy another ticket and ask them to endorse the ticket over to airline XYZ.

Sometimes you need to tell the airline what they need to do. In this day and age with airlines making staff cutbacks and outsourcing their checkin to third party companies often airport staff would have no idea what options are available and will just want to fob pax off and tell them to buy another ticket rathen than take ownership of the problem.

If people do find themselves in the situation where they have to buy another ticket, ask what the return fare would be as I would say 9 times out of 10 it would be cheaper than paying what sounds like a full economy one way fare - $7,000 bucks is astronomical for an LA to Brisbane one way flight for 2 people.

Like with most things it's easy to point the finger but until you get all the facts and hear both sides of the story you can't really lay blame one way or the other.

OZ - given your 2 posts on this thread and your info shared I can only assume you work for an airline.

To correct you, airlines (well the good ones) regularly contact our agency if theres a reasonable schedule change seeking means of contacting the clients, its certainly not a one off, though I cant see why an airline would do so for a one hour change.

I agree with alanslegal, I don't believe a one hour time change leaves the TA liable for a $7k charge, sure it would have been the courteous thing to do to try and contact them, but if a client is uncontactable, im not going to stress too badly over 1 hour, it shouldnt have meant missing the flight.

In the end, I agree with alan, its likely just to be a learning experience, as unfortunate an experience as it was.

TG

 

[Platy]

Well, I must say reading some of the latter posts that I am personally very pleased that I maintain a rule of booking direct with the airline!

If an agent didn't tell me of a schedule change in the event the airline had informed them, I would be very displeased as a customer, even if the change was an hour difference.

One time I HAD to use an agent (client booked the flight) it appeared that I could not change the flight myself with the airline (a simple flight change), it HAD to be referred back to the agent, which raises serious issues in my mind about who "owns" the primary relationship in the "contract" between passenger and airline.

Granted there are agents and agents, but I hear of few good experiences. I recently helped a friend for whom a local agent from a famous chain had set up reservatons for a LONE4. They didn't bother to tell the customer small details such as a thier 6 flight itinerary could actually be extended to 16 flights, etc. I sat them down for an hour on the Internet and introduced the to the OneWorld site, mileage monkey, etc, and they were amazed at what was possible.

The last time I used an agent I had a J class itinerary SYD-LHR on a deal on BA where you get F one way for the price of J. I went to pay the money and get the reservation ticketed on the morning of the flight as arranged with the agent only to be told they could not honour that fare because it required a paper ticket and they could not print out paper tickets in their main Sydney shop. I walked out of that agent swearing never to use that particular chain and was left wandering SYD-CBD on a Saturday morning with an hour or two to find a comparable deal beofre heading off to the airport to take the flight.

The local QF Travel Centre is no better. Ms Platy had a "flexible" ticket back to Sao Paulo (GRU) on a QF fare. Introducing one stopover (CNS-BNE-SYD instead of CNS-SYD), which was allowed in the fare rules, ended up costing $335. The first $75 of that was the agent's fee, the rest a blatant QF price gouge. The agent even miscalculated the fees by not crediting a fuel surchage/taxes for the cancelled direct CNS-SYD leg so Ms Platy was nearly paying another $60 or thereabouts.

When my mother and friend came over to Australia last year, I was able to find a much better deal for them by sitting here in CNS on the Internet than they managed talking to any of the well known local UK based agents (basically a 2-4-1 J on CX direct to CNS).

And now as a student at UQ we are told we HAVE to use the one agency to arrange any flights. I know that I will find better deals and come up with more innovative solutions.

Good luck to the good agents, I am sure they can do a competent job, but I suspect "good" would not be an appropriate adjective in most cases.

 

[Travel Guru]

Well, I must say reading some of the latter posts that I am personally very pleased that I maintain a rule of booking direct with the airline!

If an agent didn't tell me of a schedule change in the event the airline had informed them, I would be very displeased as a customer, even if the change was an hour difference.

One time I HAD to use an agent (client booked the flight) it appeared that I could not change the flight myself with the airline (a simple flight change), it HAD to be referred back to the agent, which raises serious issues in my mind about who "owns" the primary relationship in the "contract" between passenger and airline.

Granted there are agents and agents, but I hear of few good experiences. I recently helped a friend for whom a local agent from a famous chain had set up reservatons for a LONE4. They didn't bother to tell the customer small details such as a thier 6 flight itinerary could actually be extended to 16 flights, etc. I sat them down for an hour on the Internet and introduced the to the OneWorld site, mileage monkey, etc, and they were amazed at what was possible.

The last time I used an agent I had a J class itinerary SYD-LHR on a deal on BA where you get F one way for the price of J. I went to pay the money and get the reservation ticketed on the morning of the flight as arranged with the agent only to be told they could not honour that fare because it required a paper ticket and they could not print out paper tickets in their main Sydney shop. I walked out of that agent swearing never to use that particular chain and was left wandering SYD-CBD on a Saturday morning with an hour or two to find a comparable deal beofre heading off to the airport to take the flight.

The local QF Travel Centre is no better. Ms Platy had a "flexible" ticket back to Sao Paulo (GRU) on a QF fare. Introducing one stopover (CNS-BNE-SYD instead of CNS-SYD), which was allowed in the fare rules, ended up costing $335. The first $75 of that was the agent's fee, the rest a blatant QF price gouge. The agent even miscalculated the fees by not crediting a fuel surchage/taxes for the cancelled direct CNS-SYD leg so Ms Platy was nearly paying another $60 or thereabouts.

When my mother and friend came over to Australia last year, I was able to find a much better deal for them by sitting here in CNS on the Internet than they managed talking to any of the well known local UK based agents (basically a 2-4-1 J on CX direct to CNS).

And now as a student at UQ we are told we HAVE to use the one agency to arrange any flights. I know that I will find better deals and come up with more innovative solutions.

Good luck to the good agents, I am sure they can do a competent job, but I suspect "good" would not be an appropriate adjective in most cases.

I can't speak for the rest of the industry, but good isn't something we go for, great or exceptional is more the norm and I guess it's why my agency is so successful and has the rate of repeat and referral clientele we do....I shall remain forever thankful that they don't share your view and place a far greater value on their time than you obviously do.

Whilst we make every effort to notify clients of time changes, there are some instances where it's simply not possible to get the information through to them, it certainly doesn't make me an incompetent agent, and I certainly can't control whether a client is going to have their mobile on roaming, or checking their emails regularly, in the end, they too must take some responsibility for checking their flights are on time.

There's no doubting that there are bad agents, just like there are bad people in every industry, but suggesting that few if any agents could be deemed good seems rather over the top.

TG

 

[Platy]

I can't speak for the rest of the industry, but good isn't something we go for, great or exceptional is more the norm and I guess it's why my agency is so successful and has the rate of repeat and referral clientele we do....I shall remain forever thankful that they don't share your view and place a far greater value on their time than you obviously do.

Whilst we make every effort to notify clients of time changes, there are some instances where it's simply not possible to get the information through to them, it certainly doesn't make me an incompetent agent, and I certainly can't control whether a client is going to have their mobile on roaming, or checking their emails regularly, in the end, they too must take some responsibility for checking their flights are on time.

There's no doubting that there are bad agents, just like there are bad people in every industry, but suggesting that few if any agents could be deemed good seems rather over the top.

TG

Obviously I cannot comment on your own good self or your parent employer/company. I am more than willing to presume the benefit of the doubt, and even better than that, on the basis of the history of your own posts would hazard you are an exceptionally professional individual.

That said, just as my own experiences may not extrapolate, neither may your own individual professional standards apply generally to the industry at large. For example, for how many minutes would you bother or not bother to notify a client of a schedule change - people on this thread think 60 minutes doens't warrant your time and trouble - personally, I beg to differ. IF an airline chanegs a flight, even by a minute, I can't see why you don't have an OBLIGATION to follow up.

I can only base my own personal perceptions on my immediate experiences and those of friends/colleagues.

On that basis I would restate IMHO to NOT BOTHER to tell a client about a schedule change is unprofessional.

Similarly, for the paying passenger not be able to be able to change their own flights without contacting an agent who may NOT be available, at the same time that the agent might seek to renege any sense of responsbility for a missed flight is also unacceptable to me as a customer.

For those reasons, and respecting there may be good (even excellent agents out there), I would need to be compelled by circumstance (university or client) to use an agent.

I respectfully submit that the problem for agents is both the reluctance of airlines to pay commissions AND the readily available access to both information and booking machines for the average joe or jane passenger online. Anyone with a few minutes, an internet connection and a search engine can generally outsmart and out-buy the average agent. That, I must presume , is a very real problem for the travel agency industry. For example, I have TAUGHT local agents in Cairns Smithfield Centre more about rtw flights than they ever knew just as a walk in customer. (PS I have done this necely and respectfully for what its worth).


IF I was the OP I would have little time and respect for both the airline and agent invovled and be sickened by the potential buck passing. Nothing in the OPs story (despite the familiar initial cries of suspicion typical of this forum) or logical decisions seem very inappropriate (if possibly legally ill-advised with hind sight).

The travel agent really needs to offer something more, IMHO, in the current travel milieu. The corporate agents are locking you in and the high street agents are ripping you off.

One example to conclude, one famous brand crowed about their lowest price guarantee, but this came to nothing in a real live example (we can't see that fare so we won't honour it).

Sorry mate, a few good agents don't exonerate a lacklustre industry.

 

[drron]

Ozbeachbabe I think you have the answer to what happened.From the OP's post-
"And fourthly, the travel insurance issue. We purchased our travel insurance for the 10 months we were abroad at the same time as we purchased our flights. Our flight was due to depart on the 25th at 12.10AM in the morning. For some unknown reason, our travel agent only booked us travel insurance until the 24th. I have no idea why she did this and it makes no sense to me whatsoever. But being a slightly niave person who trusts people to do their job correctly, i never picked up that the travel insurance was one day short. I have not tried to contact our travel insurance provider about this problem yet as i am assuming we won't be covered because the original departure booking, as well as the actual flight that we ended up taking, was on the 25th. In saying this, the original flight was actually rescheduled to the 24th, so perhaps there might be some hope??"
Then from you-
"Like everyone else above I guess I'm curious as to when you first showed up at the airport on the 24th January to checkin. A common problem when flights depart in the wee hours of the morning ie in your case 0010 on 25th January is people turning up say at 2200 on 25th January to checkin for a flight not understanding the concept of actually having to turn up on the evening of the 24th."
So to the OP did you turn up to the airport on the 24th or 25th?
If the 25th i am sorry but neither the airline or TA is at fault and as others have said an expensive mistake.

 

[JohnK]

That said, just as my own experiences may not extrapolate, neither may your own individual professional standards apply generally to the industry at large. For example, for how many minutes would you bother or not bother to notify a client of a schedule change - people on this thread think 60 minutes doens't warrant your time and trouble - personally, I beg to differ. IF an airline chanegs a flight, even by a minute, I can't see why you don't have an OBLIGATION to follow up.

I don't know about others but I would expect an agent to inform me of any change to an itinerary regardless of how trivial the change. I get emails from QF or DJ for 5 minute changes to flights.

There is still no excuse for missing the flight when the change was only 70 minutes earlier. Still should have been at the airport for the original flight.

 

[NM]

For example, for how many minutes would you bother or not bother to notify a client of a schedule change - people on this thread think 60 minutes doens't warrant your time and trouble - personally, I beg to differ. IF an airline chanegs a flight, even by a minute, I can't see why you don't have an OBLIGATION to follow up.

I don't think there are too many people suggesting that the passenger should not be notified for a 1 hour change. In fact, I agree that any change warrants notification. I think some people have made the suggestion that a passenger should not miss a flight departing from LAX due to a one-hour departure change if they have arrived at the airport at the original time recommended by the airline. These are two independent issues. Yes, I agree someone should inform a passenger of any schedule change (I cannot add to the debate of whether that is the TA or airline's responsibility). I also agree that arriving at LAX at the time recommended by the airline concerned should not have resulted in the passenger missing the flight.

 

[Platy]

I also agree that arriving at LAX at the time recommended by the airline concerned should not have resulted in the passenger missing the flight.

I am not sure that I do - depends on the airline?

Qantas, for example, recommends on their web site that you arrive 120 minutes before an international departure and cites a 60 minutes before departure cut off. Based on that information a passenger would be quite within expectation to arrive less than 120 minutes before departrue and expect to get the flight as long as they weren't arriving with less than 60 minutes to spare - especially if they were closer to the 120 minute rather 60 minute window.

Granted it wasn't QF, but following the argument through, it should have been possible to arrive after 2210 for the original flight and still make the original flight, but arriving after 2210 would be too late for the re-scheduled flight.

Thus well within the bounds of possibility to miss the rescheduled flight even if you arrive just one or more minutes after the exact recommended time for the original.

The cries of LAX is different depend upon whether the airline advises so, not the perceptions of frequent flyers.

 

[NM]

I am not sure that I do - depends on the airline?

The airline involved recommends at least two hours and in fact specifically note that three hours is recommended for departures from the USA. It is that recommendation on which I am basing my expectation that a passenger should not miss a flight if arriving at the recommended time (3 hours before departure) and finds the flight now departing one hour earlier.

JohnK linked the China Airline web site earlier in the thread and included the following quote from their web site:

Hours of operation for China Airlines check-in counters and the time required for pre-boarding procedures vary from airport to airport. In general, we recommend that you check in 2 hours before the scheduled departure time, but you may need 3 hours or even more for some busy airports with strict procedures such as those in the U.S.

Also note this is the suggested "check-in time". Everybody expects some queue at the check-in desk, so should be allowing for that in order to be checked-in at the time suggested by the airline. In this case I would expect to be arrive at least 3.5 hours before planned departure time in order to be checked in 3 hours before per the airline's recommendation.

 

[Alanslegal]

Just to clarify this point - the flight was moved back just over an hour but because the original flight was at 10 past midnight, a one hour backwards time change meant a new time AND date (from 0010 on 25th to 2300 on 24th).

Crabby, would you tell us/me openly what time you actually arrived at LAX prior to your flight? That (to me) is the critical factor here.

 

[Platy]

Everybody expects some queue at the check-in desk, so should be allowing for that in order to be checked-in at the time suggested by the airline. In this case I would expect to be arrive at least 3.5 hours before planned departure time in order to be checked in 3 hours before per the airline's recommendation.

Hold on, hold on. What's this, are you sure you're not re-writing the rules in favour of the airline??? :shock:

Does airline business depend on customers or the other way around??? Am I the lone voice for the customer against a groundswell of pro-industry propaganda???

What about the 1,000s of folk forced onto later flights by Qf because they didn't maintain staffing levels at BNE domestic nd procvess check ins efficiently?????

Brother, you have completely lost the plot.

Since when does a recommended check in time rely on the customer having to second guess the length of the check in queue, number of check in agents, average check in time, variances in scheduling not advised to passenger??? :!:

For example, does JQ insist that passengers check in prior to 30 minutes before departure or arrive at the check in area at this time???

Completely nuts!!! :evil:

 

[Dave Noble]

For example, does JQ insist that passengers check in prior to 30 minutes before departure or arrive at the check in area at this time???

To actually be checked in at T-30

Dave

 

[Dave Noble]

Since when does a recommended check in time rely on the customer having to second guess the length of the check in queue, number of check in agents, average check in time, variances in scheduling not advised to passenger??? :!:

They always have in effect. That is why they have 2 times, that which they recommend and that actual cut off time. Turn up at the recommended 2-3 hours and you should be fine

Dave

 

[Platy]

The airline involved recommends at least two hours and in fact specifically note that three hours is recommended for departures from the USA. It is that recommendation on which I am basing my expectation that a passenger should not miss a flight if arriving at the recommended time (3 hours before departure) and finds the flight now departing one hour earlier

EH? Your logic is critically flawed. IF the OP arrived at LAX at or soon before 3 hrs before the original flight time, they could not have satisfied the recommended 3 hrs for the re-scheduled flight.

IF arriving at the airport on or before the recommended check in time is suddenly the benchmark (as you and others imply) the OP may not have met that despite arriving at the airport in good time for the original flight departure time and being in the "right" in lieu of advisemet of changed schedule.

You want it both ways my friend and in the airline's favour.

 

[Platy]

To actually be checked in at T-30

Dave

No, Dave, not true, my friend.

The JQ web site says check in (dom) desks close 30 minutes before departure (which is not practically true sicne they continue process pax after this time).

It also says you need arrive before check in closes NOT check in before check in closes.

"Passengers who arrive after check-in has closed will not be able to board the flight and may forfeit their entire fare"

This implies closing of check in is practically speaking a closing off of the end of the check in queue...

 

[Platy]

They always have in effect. That is why they have 2 times, that which they recommend and that actual cut off time. Turn up at the recommended 2-3 hours and you should be fine

Dave

So by your logic, IF a passenger isn't processed at the check in desk by the cut off time they are stuffed, even if they have been queueing faithtfully in a line for equal or more than recommended check in time?