Choice says airline policies "break" consumer law

[JohnK]

Re: Choice targets airlines over failure to provide full refunds

Johnny I hope you said NO I just cannot be jerked around like this!

Sorry Cruiser. I took the free night with the upgrade.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Choice targets airlines over failure to provide full refunds

I guess airlines or the ACCC may have to define what is a "fit for purpose" flight purchase. For example, for a flight to be judged as fit for purpose, you must:

• Arrive at the destination stated on your ticket you initially purchased
• Arrive within a certain time as stated on your ticket you initially purchased or consented to exchange (e.g. flight time change)
• Travel in the class of service you have paid for (and been offered the opportunity to enjoy all the services in that class, e.g. a meal, a seat)
• Been offered the opportunity to enjoy all the services you specifically paid for (e.g. extra baggage allowance)

If any of those are broken, the product is deemed not fit for purpose and you get a refund. Then we would also need to have arguments about whether a full or partial refund is due in some cases of "not fit for purpose"; for example, you managed to successfully fly from BNE to MEL on time, but on board you did not receive a meal that was advertised by the airline.

I think EU261 deals with this quite well. A delay of a certain time period (depending on distance) automatically gives rise to a claim, with limited exceptions for the airline to fall back on.

Class downgrades are well compensated (75% of the ticket price).

Ancillary services (baggage allowance, meal etc) are a different category, they are components which can be compensated outside of the actual delivery of the transport part.

 

[serfty]

Re: Choice targets airlines over failure to provide full refunds

I think EU261 deals with this quite well. A delay of a certain time period (depending on distance) automatically gives rise to a claim, with limited exceptions for the airline to fall back on.

Class downgrades are well compensated (75% of the ticket price).

It would be great if such regulation could be introduced here - but I doubt that it would get past the lobbyists.

Just to note that EU261 does not define specifically any compensation in the case of delays, just "duty of care". However subsequent case law/decision has meant that a delay of the arrival time to the destination in excess of three hours of a journey becomes subject to its cancellation provisions, including possible compensation.

Also, in June a decision was ratified in relation to "the ticket price" actually meant. Basically, in relation to downgrades, "Ticket price" is pro-rata to the distance affected by the downgrade, not necessarily the whole ticket price as paid. Also, in assessing ticket price, the airlines are entitled to still take into account any +++ relevant to the downgraded cabin.

 

[codash1099]

And a bit more here:

Australian airline investigation into 'systemic breaches'

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Choice targets airlines over failure to provide full refunds

It would be great if such regulation could be introduced here - but I doubt that it would get past the lobbyists.

Just to note that EU261 does not define specifically any compensation in the case of delays, just "duty of care". However subsequent case law/decision has meant that a delay of the arrival time to the destination in excess of three hours of a journey becomes subject to its cancellation provisions, including possible compensation.

Also, in June a decision was ratified in relation to "the ticket price" actually meant. Basically, in relation to downgrades, "Ticket price" is pro-rata to the distance affected by the downgrade, not necessarily the whole ticket price as paid. Also, in assessing ticket price, the airlines are entitled to still take into account any +++ relevant to the downgraded cabin.

Thanks Serfty - have you got a link to the 'ticket price' issue. I can't seem to find it through google.

 

[serfty]

Re: Choice targets airlines over failure to provide full refunds

Thanks Serfty - have you got a link to the 'ticket price' issue. I can't seem to find it through google.

...
Also, in June a decision was ratified in relation to "the ticket price" actually meant ....

The Court of Justice of the European Union released a judgement on 22 June - the two names it is known by are: Steef Mennens v Emirates Direktion für Deutschland, Meenens versus Emirates.

In general terms (it can be more complicated) "75% of the ticket price" can be deemed to mean refund of:

0.75 [SUB]x[/SUB] ( ( (<distance downgraded> ÷ <total ticketed distance>) [SUB]x[/SUB] <total fare paid> ) - <government +++ for downgraded travel> ).

I've started a thread on this.

 

[Buzzard]

Re: Choice targets airlines over failure to provide full refunds

Years ago we booked a JQ flight ADL-SYD following which we were catching a QantasLink flight.
JQ advised the flight we booked was cancelled and put us on a flight the previous day. We were not even going to be in ADL that day. Trying to get a refund was worse than getting teeth pulled!

It's about time somebody stuck it up the airlines.

 

[wandering_fred]

Re: Choice targets airlines over failure to provide full refunds

I think EU261 deals with this quite well. A delay of a certain time period (depending on distance) automatically gives rise to a claim, with limited exceptions for the airline to fall back on.
Class downgrades are well compensated (75% of the ticket price).
...

While I have no great issues with EU261 (and would likely be an improvement if implemented in Australia), up until recently business class flights on some QF routes were rather expensive when compared to economy. My recollection was that in some cases, more than 4 times the price, thus the 75% value would leave the customer "short-changed" if downgraded. Perhaps an alternative - if acceptable to the customer - a guaranteed (FF earning if resulting from a revenue ticket) upgrade certificate for any itinerary with the same carrier not exceeding 150% of the mileage of the down-graded flight. If down-graded PER-SYD (2040) then the certificate would allow uprgade of PER-SIN (2420).

Assuming that the question of refunds is "resolved" I would hope that the refund processing also has a maximum permitted "time lag" as well. Waiting for six weeks for a refund would be considered "abusive" in my estimation.

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[anat0l]

Re: Choice targets airlines over failure to provide full refunds

While I have no great issues with EU261 (and would likely be an improvement if implemented in Australia), up until recently business class flights on some QF routes were rather expensive when compared to economy. My recollection was that in some cases, more than 4 times the price, thus the 75% value would leave the customer "short-changed" if downgraded. Perhaps an alternative - if acceptable to the customer - a guaranteed (FF earning if resulting from a revenue ticket) upgrade certificate for any itinerary with the same carrier not exceeding 150% of the mileage of the down-graded flight. If down-graded PER-SYD (2040) then the certificate would allow uprgade of PER-SIN (2420).

I hadn't thought about how the downgrade compensation can leave one out of pocket like that. There would easily be instances where a customer would not receive close to what they would pay for a ticket in their newly downgraded class. Short haul flights are easily good examples of this, since EU 261 only gives a 30% refund if you are downgraded.

The interesting part of the "upgrade certificate" is that it would have to be a regulatory instrument, i.e. the law would need to specify exactly how and when it can be used. You would also have to add lots of "understanding" things to it. For example, if you choose the certificate, you give up your right to cash compensation. Would the certificate have an expiry, because that might be contentious (if the certificate was intended as compensation, it might not be right to impose a time limit on it)? Would its use be unconditional (i.e. a carrier cannot "restrict" the use of the instrument similar to how it controls capacity for awards)? Can you only use the certificate to upgrade the same classes you experienced the downgrade (for example, if you were downgraded from J to Y and received a certificate, can you use this later to upgrade a J to F)?

If a customer is offered both options - cash or a certificate - but the carrier knows (from calculation) that a certificate will be better "value" because the cash will not offset enough of the customer's expense, is it the responsibility of the carrier to inform a customer of this?

Another idea is to go beyond the idea of the percentage and propose other calculation methods for downgrades:

• The extreme idea is to make the entire amount of the ticket refunded, on the grounds of a failure to deliver the intended product
• One idea is that the amount refunded must be the difference of what the customer paid and the lowest fare on the same day the customer purchased the original ticket had the downgraded sector been purchased in the downgraded class. I think we talk about this a lot on here (outside of frameworks like EU 261).

Assuming that the question of refunds is "resolved" I would hope that the refund processing also has a maximum permitted "time lag" as well. Waiting for six weeks for a refund would be considered "abusive" in my estimation.

Even the EU can't get this right. Part of the problem in a large sense is even working out which jurisdiction to file the claim in. And airlines will drag their feet. This kind of fatigue can result in many customers simply giving up their legal right to pursue compensation. Some resort to companies which, for a generous garnish of ~20% of your claim, will go through the hurdles for you. Irrespective of a bit of noble legislation in this regard, what would be the penalties for airlines who "abuse by dragging it out" and would airlines have a way to file a court order which can suspend or prolong this period?

 

[seanpodge]

Re: Choice targets airlines over failure to provide full refunds

While I think the airlines should lift their game, it would be fair to point out that while "no refunds" isn't allowed, there's no obligation for companies to provide refunds just because a customer changed their mind. I do think any airline initiated schedule changes should come with the offer of a full refund, however. Forced downgrades and long delays should also require significant compensation.

Also, the credit card fees are a rort (one not so often found in other countries, I believe). They should be rolled into the ticket price.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Choice targets airlines over failure to provide full refunds

Tiger.

Here's a new one. Friday evening 9 Jan flight MEL-BNE-MEL, purchased as a round-trip (single booking process). MEL-BNE cancelled due to weather/ATC. Choice between flight credit or a flight midday Saturday (reducing time in BNE to less than 24 hours). Time in BNE now insufficient so credit taken.

However - Tiger refuses to credit the BNE-MEL as it is still operating, claiming they are a 'point-to-point' carrier and the cancellation of the BNE flight (Friday evening) was outside their control. JQ, VA, QF all still flying to BNE.