British watchdog probes Qantas ads

[Singapore_Air]

I think he has picked up on a very old issue going back to the time QF introduced Skybeds into the 744 fleet. At that time they advertised that Skybed was available on all flights to London, but occasionally they had to sub a non-skybed aircraft due to maintenance and other aircraft serviceability issues. They copped a bit of flack at he time whenever it happened.

However, I think it has been a very long time since QF operated a non-Skybed aircraft into London, so it really is a dead argument to be making.

The guy need to take a large dose of reality if he wants to be taken seriously.

Am I missing a piece of priceless wit here or do you seriously consider this to be a viable arguement anyone can make against the advert in 2008 ? :shock:

 

[medhead]

Am I missing a piece of priceless wit here or do you seriously consider this to be a viable arguement anyone can make against the advert in 2008 ? :shock:

I'm pretty sure that was an argument for the ad not against it. :-|
did you follow the link to the newspaper story? NM seems to be outlining the problem with the complaint raised by the guy in the story.

 

[NM]

Am I missing a piece of priceless wit here or do you seriously consider this to be a viable arguement anyone can make against the advert in 2008 ? :shock:

I was commenting on the poor arguments used by the person mentioned in the Herald Sun article linked by tuapekastar in post #15 in this thread. The article identifies two complaints made by Mr Huynh relating to QF advertising in the UK as being:

Mr Huynh pointed out that Dutch-based KLM is older than Qantas.

and

He also complained that the Australian carrier was promoting a business-class skybed to British TV viewers that was not available on flights to the UK.

I posit that both these claims by Mr Huynh, while technically accurate at some point in history, indicate to me that there is a distinct lack or reality and intent to mislead.

1. Yes, KLM started operation as a commercial airline earlier in the same year as Qantas (1920), KLM did not operate for a period of several years during WWII, meaning that Qantas can accurately claim to have operated for more years than KLM and hence the longest continuously operating airline. My point earlier in the thread is that there are many ways one can measure experience. If measured by duration of operations, Qantas clearly is the leader. If measured by other criteria such as total number of flights operated, total number of passengers carrier or total number of hours flown, then others may be able to claim the leading position. But I have not seen any other airline produce any statistics that claim to be the leader in terms of experience based on any of these criteria.

2. I believe its been several years now since Qantas has operated a non-Skybed flight service to/from the UK. The 744 fleet completed its Skybed upgrade quite some time ago and I am not aware of a 743 being substituted for a LHR service for a very long time. So any claim about misleading advertising about Skybeds on flights to/from the UK is not relevant today and has not been relevant for several years. So why raise it in a media article published on 11th September 2008??

It is on these two points that I posit that Mr Huynh needs to reconsider his arguments with a generous dose of reality. He may have noble intentions, but I believe his facts are inaccurate.

And don't confuse me as being a Qantas sympathiser. I am far form being that. I have no links to the company and have not earned a single QFF status credit for nearly 3 years.

 

[Singapore_Air]

1.

Well I am said person and unfortunately there is a small mistake in the article in that I did not complain on point number 1. I have no comment to make on that one. The other complainants have their own issues.

2. So any claim about misleading advertising about Skybeds on flights to/from the UK is not relevant today and has not been relevant for several years. So why raise it in a media article published on 11th September 2008??

The complaint is the depiction of the type of SkyBed in the said advert. Unfortunately I have been barred from commenting further until the final ruling by the UK's Advertising Standards Council is out in a few weeks time.

And to address some other points, I don't work for Singapore Airlines and I am not a Daily Mail reader.

Hope this provides some greater clarity (and I apologies for not being able to say more at this juncture but we can revisit the issue at a future date).

 

[Sprucegoose]

Seems the "World's Most Experienced Airline" mantra is getting QF into hotwater.

British watchdog probes Qantas ads - Yahoo!7 News


Serves them right for pinching PanAm's old byline.

I believe PanAM was established in 1927? So if that was the case, it still wouldnt have been correct to assert they were the worlds most experienced airline based on historical assertion or addage, depending on how one wants to view matters.

cheers SPRUCE

 

[Sprucegoose]

Well I am said person and unfortunately there is a small mistake in the article in that I did not complain on point number 1. I have no comment to make on that one. The other complainants have their own issues.



The complaint is the depiction of the type of SkyBed in the said advert. Unfortunately I have been barred from commenting further until the final ruling by the UK's Advertising Standards Council is out in a few weeks time.

And to address some other points, I don't work for Singapore Airlines and I am not a Daily Mail reader.

Hope this provides some greater clarity (and I apologies for not being able to say more at this juncture but we can revisit the issue at a future date).

How can you be barred when you are anonomyous!!!!

 

[simongr]

I am little confused on the barring as well. Have you signed a non-disclosure agreement? I dont believe that this is a criminal or civil court proceeding so who is barring you?

So the arguments come down to basically the depiction of a SBII rather than SBI in an advert?

 

[serfty]

G'day Singapore_Air, welcome to AFF.

Well I am said person and unfortunately there is a small mistake in the article in that I did not complain on point number 1. I have no comment to make on that one. The other complainants have their own issues. ...

... Mr Huynh is one of eight British citizens who lodged complaints against Qantas recently with the UK Advertising Standards Authority.

They argue that Qantas misled TV viewers with its "world's most experienced airline" commercial.

Mr Huynh pointed out that Dutch-based KLM is older than Qantas. ...

Presumably this small mistake relates to the implied attribution of that quote to you.

 

[NM]

How can you be barred when you are anonomyous!!!!

He is not anonymous any more

For reference, I believe this is the Qantas UK ad that makes the claim regarding most experienced airline.

The words used in this ad are "Qantas, the Australian airline, is also the world's most experienced, having flown continuously for over 87 years. That's longer than any other airline". That seems to me to define pretty clearly the basis for their claim and removing any ambiguity regarding KLM starting operations earlier in the same year as Qantas. The inclusion of the word "continuously" in their claim is the key.

I cannot find an ad that makes any reference to any specific Skybed version being available on services to the UK. Can anyone point us to the ad?

I assume the Skybed complaint is not from the same ad. I can't tell from the brief vision if its a Mk I or Mk II skybed. The person lying on it seems have their head higher than their feet (i.e. sloping) but its really hard to tell. I assume its a studio mock-up and not from an actual cabin, which is what most airlines do. And the text "Skybed on A330-200, A330-300 and 747-400. Subject to last minute aircraft changes." provides the clarification.

I suppose one could argue that the ad for Singapore Airlines new First Class is misleading in that it suggest I will be the only passenger in a cabin surrounded by trees. But I understand what they are trying to imply and accept the "poetic licence" ad part of an advertising campaign.

 

[dot]

I want to know how I can also get the title "aviation whiz kid" ... perhaps I am too old for that...

Back on topic, if the ad is the one that NM linked to on YouTube, I do not see anything in the ad to complain about.

Wikipedia would appear to have it wrong when it states that Qantas "...is the world's second oldest continuously operating airline (behind KLM)" since KLM was did not operate during WW2, it cannot claim continuous operations since founding. Even if you take into account KLM was founded about 13 months prior to Qantas, the war break would cut back it's years of operation to 3-4 less than Qantas years of operation. Either way, Qantas has it over KLM.

With regard to the seats, I actually think that the seat pictured in profile is a Skybed Mk2 (the centre console appears longer and the seat appears 'more horizontal' than a SkyBed Mk1 gets (compare these two images to see what I mean:

Skybed Mk1

Skybed Mk2

Even if that is the case, QF are in the midst of rolling out the Mk2 right now with the launch of the A380. Perhaps that is the basis for the complaint... the ad states Skybeds are on A330 and 747 services, then (in the next scene at least) they show a Skybed Mk2 when we all know that the A330 and 747 services will only ever have Skybed Mk1 - decieving the viewer into thinking that the Skybed on the A330 and 747 services will be the Skybed Mk2 when it will not be.

My 2c worth...

 

[simongr]

Even if that is the case, QF are in the midst of rolling out the Mk2 right now with the launch of the A380. Perhaps that is the basis for the complaint... the ad states Skybeds are on A330 and 747 services, then (in the next scene at least) they show a Skybed Mk2 when we all know that the A330 and 747 services will only ever have Skybed Mk1 - decieving the viewer into thinking that the Skybed on the A330 and 747 services will be the Skybed Mk2 when it will not be.

My 2c worth...

I think to say that QF are rolling out SKBII is a tad generous - there are none in the fleet at all at the moment.

 

[dot]

I think to say that QF are rolling out SKBII is a tad generous - there are none in the fleet at all at the moment.

Correct, but QF are about to take delivery of their first A380 with Skybed Mk2. They have been fitted to at least one aircraft already even if that aircraft has not started operations... but I take your point.

 

[NM]

But a fresh dose of reality tells me that I still find it difficult to tell for certain which type of Skybed is in the video and the ad does not make any mention of MKII or of horizontal beds or any features that are unique to the MKII Skybed. So it seems pretty petty to me to lodge a complaint based on this. However, Mr Huynh seems to feel there is justification so it will be interesting to see if the Advertising Watchdog agrees with him.

But in my view, the Qantas ad is no less accurate in its presentation of a cabin product than the SQ First Class ad I linked previously.

Mr Huynh (aka Singapore_Air), do you see any issues with the SQ First Class ad as not being an accurate representation of the product SQ is operating?

 

[medhead]

Wikipedia would appear to have it wrong when it states that Qantas "...is the world's second oldest continuously operating airline (behind KLM)" since KLM was did not operate during WW2, it cannot claim continuous operations since founding. Even if you take into account KLM was founded about 13 months prior to Qantas, the war break would cut back it's years of operation to 3-4 less than Qantas years of operation. Either way, Qantas has it over KLM.

The problem with wikipedia - if you follow the link I posted it shows KLM and Qantas starting in 1920.

Airline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It also lists the 5 oldest airlines and provides links to their wiki entries. Clearly they would be consistent if the same person had written all the different entries.

I think to be an aviation whizz kid you need to spend many hours extracting information from forums like this and get published in a uk tabloid
(note I know nothing about uk papers except that page 3 of the sun makes absorbing reading)

 

[dot]

The problem with wikipedia - if you follow the link I posted it shows KLM and Qantas starting in 1920.

Which is actually correct if KLM and Qantas's own web sites are to believed. While KLM was founded in 1919, it's first flight wasn't actually until 17 May 1920 - see History | KLM Corporate . Unfortunately, it is not clear when Qantas's first flight was, so quoting founding dates was the only date that was consistent between both airlines.

 

[Skoogle]

Someone has added a reference to KLM operations during World War II in the Caribbean Colonies of the Netherlands.

There is no mention of this in the KLM corporate info.

 

[oz_mark]

I notice on the A380 poster that came in this morning Herald Sun, that they write:

We've been flying longer,
continuously,
than any other airline.​

So they are definitley hanging their hat on the continuous part.

 

[simongr]

The most experienced airline line was rolled out again tonight after the CH9 news (sorry its bad habit that I cant break) in the A380 Ad - truly a great sight actually seeing the A380 over the original aircraft (obviously edited in).

 

[MEL_Traveller]

For reference, I believe this is Qantas UK ad that makes the claim regarding most experienced airline.

I cannot find an ad that makes any reference to any specific Skybed version being available on services to the UK. Can anyone point us to the ad?

The advertisement itself does not have to make any specific reference to it being a new or old skybed. It's what it looks like to an ordinary member of the public.

I have always thought it was the fully flat version they showed in the advertisement, and I have always thought it misleading.

It's only because I happen to know that fully flat skybeds are not yet available to London that I don't book and fly with Qantas expecting to see one. If I were 1st time flyer with qantas I reckon I could reasonably expect to see a seat that looks like the one in the ad.

For me, it looks like the guy is flat, not on an angle like the earlier skybed.

Regards

MEL_Traveller

 

[simongr]

So you are pre-supposing that a punter would not bother to read about the seat the are travelling before booking and just rely on a TV ad? Caveat emptor then - or stupid is as stupid does...

Let's think about this objectively. For $14K I could fly in J to NYC or I could buy a second hand Yaris. Now if I bought the yaris on ebay without doing any checking and found it didnt have electrically adjustable seats (as the TV ad for a new Yaris might suggest) who is at fault?

Seasoned travellers know that seats are not guaranteed. Unseasoned travellers should not blow $10K without research. If they do they are lazy, stupid or both.