BA invites tenders for new aircraft

[serfty]

Sure but using this logic you would get more personal space in Y on a 777 than on a 767 and more in a 747 than on a 777 but depending on the airline of course, you generally don't.

Look at it this way; With the above B744 / A380 comparison, both the available payload weight capacity and deck space/floor area (ie total seating) have increased.

However, the floor area has increased by a factor that is around twice the increase in the weight that can be carried.

Each passenger and accompanying baggage has an industry standard defined weight; this would not "change" between the aircraft.

So the A380 can carry about 30% more pax than the B744 when considering payload. However, there is about 60% more deck space to load these 30% more PAX into, so the seating can be less condensed.

i.e. the available deck space has increased significantly out of proportion to the available payload. This is not the case with the 777/767 comparison. The upper deck of the 747 ensures the 777/747 comparison leans a bit towards that of the A380 but with not nearly the same degree of variance.

 

[NM]

Hmmm....the industry also count the aisles in the space category. If the seats, (pitch and width) are the same in the 767 and 777 then you will get more "personal space" in the 777 because there will be more room in the aisle, which means fewers bumps for those in the aisle. The 777 at 9 across also has more "space" per passenger than a 747 at 10 across. Also every 777 that I have been on has had the Boeing signature interior which definitely gives more headroom than an Airbus product, which will include the A380, so that creates an impression of more personal space.
The 777-300 have greater cargo capacity than a 747-400.

For reference, the 777-300ER (passenger) has cargo capacity of 7080 cu ft (200.5 cu m) and can carry 8 pallets and 20 LD-3 containers.

The 747-400 has cargo capacity of 6025 cu ft (170.5 cu m) and can carry up to 30 LD-1 containers.

This is partly due to the 777-300ER (73.9m) being longer than the 747-400 (70.6m).

Even with the overall length of 76.4m, the 747-8 (passenger) will have a smaller cargo capacity than the 747-400 (57-5 cu ft). I assume this is due to fuel tank capacity.

 

[Altair]

Each passenger and accompanying baggage has an industry standard defined weight; this would not "change" between the aircraft.

So the A380 can carry about 30% more pax than the B744 when considering payload. However, there is about 60% more deck space to load these 30% more PAX into, so the seating can be less condensed.

I thought that Emirates chief Clarke stated that the A380 could carry 30% less cargo than the current aircraft due to the limited cargo space available after they take into consideration the passengers' bags. The A380 was not designed around the idea of carrying passengers and freight but around the idea of moving more passengers in a single aircraft between restricted hubs. I like the idea of an A380 combi, passengers on the top deck with bags and cargo on the bottom 2 decks, this will get around the FAA restrictions on new combis that require a reinforced bulkhead between passengers and cargo.

 

[maninblack]

So the A380 can carry about 30% more pax than the B744 when considering payload. However, there is about 60% more deck space to load these 30% more PAX into, so the seating can be less condensed.

i.e. the available deck space has increased significantly out of proportion to the available payload. This is not the case with the 777/767 comparison. The upper deck of the 747 ensures the 777/747 comparison leans a bit towards that of the A380 but with not nearly the same degree of variance.

Your maths seems to make sense. But, what if QF and others allocate all of the extra space to First and Business and still cram in Y passengers in the same way they do now:!: It would certainly be a good selling point for QF if they did allocate Y passengers more personal space on these planes, imagine an extra inch of seat width and an extra 3 inches of pitch, (already on NZ) it would sell tix for sure. Really it would be appalling if they didn't, all the hype would just be bunk.

 

[serfty]

... But, what if QF and others allocate all of the extra space to First and Business and still cram in Y passengers in the same way they do now:!: It would certainly be a good selling point for QF if they did allocate Y passengers more personal space on these planes, imagine an extra inch of seat width and an extra 3 inches of pitch, (already on NZ) it would sell tix for sure. Really it would be appalling if they didn't, all the hype would just be bunk.

Fully concur ...

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

Really it would be appalling if they didn't, all the hype would just be bunk.

Agree, but remember a lot of the hype came from airbus not the airlines.

 

[NM]

Look at it this way; With the above B744 / A380 comparison, both the available payload weight capacity and deck space/floor area (ie total seating) have increased.

However, the floor area has increased by a factor that is around twice the increase in the weight that can be carried.

Each passenger and accompanying baggage has an industry standard defined weight; this would not "change" between the aircraft.

So the A380 can carry about 30% more pax than the B744 when considering payload. However, there is about 60% more deck space to load these 30% more PAX into, so the seating can be less condensed.

i.e. the available deck space has increased significantly out of proportion to the available payload. This is not the case with the 777/767 comparison. The upper deck of the 747 ensures the 777/747 comparison leans a bit towards that of the A380 but with not nearly the same degree of variance.

that is assuming the 744 is weight limited when all the seats are filled using the standard weight allowance, and I suspect that is unlikely most of the time.

 

[Altair]

Your maths seems to make sense. But, what if QF and others allocate all of the extra space to First and Business and still cram in Y passengers in the same way they do now:!: It would certainly be a good selling point for QF if they did allocate Y passengers more personal space on these planes, imagine an extra inch of seat width and an extra 3 inches of pitch, (already on NZ) it would sell tix for sure. Really it would be appalling if they didn't, all the hype would just be bunk.

I would dearly love it if QF do this.
However I would wonder if they will have Y seats designed just for the A380. If they used the same Y seats on the international 787, then they would need to be configured at 8 across due to the extra width.:mrgreen:
People have said that airlines do not make money out of Y passengers....I say that is wrong, some passengers maybe sold at a loss but if airlines were not making money out of the Y cabin then they surely would be flying BBJs (like Privatair) configured for business class and first class instead of the 747. Does Maxjet or Eos make money?

 

[NM]

I would dearly love it if QF do this.
However I would wonder if they will have Y seats designed just for the A380. If they used the same Y seats on the international 787, then they would need to be configured at 8 across due to the extra width.:mrgreen:
People have said that airlines do not make money out of Y passengers....I say that is wrong, some passengers maybe sold at a loss but if airlines were not making money out of the Y cabin then they surely would be flying BBJs (like Privatair) configured for business class and first class instead of the 747. Does Maxjet or Eos make money?

Perhaps they can use the same seats on 787 and A380 upper deck in a similar 9 across config??? Thus leaving the lower deck for F, J and hopefully Y+ with lots of space.

I guess it also depends on just how they plan to divide up the 501 seats between F, J and Y (and hopefully Y+).

 

[serfty]

that is assuming the 744 is weight limited when all the seats are filled using the standard weight allowance, and I suspect that is unlikely most of the time.

Certainly; the main issue is that the change in weight to space ratio is significant enough to allow the design/installation/use of larger/greater/more seats/pitch/space.

 

[Altair]

Perhaps they can use the same seats on 787 and A380 upper deck in a similar 9 across config??? Thus leaving the lower deck for F, J and hopefully Y+ with lots of space.

I guess it also depends on just how they plan to divide up the 501 seats between F, J and Y (and hopefully Y+).

NOOOOOOOO:!:
How dumb am I? I have always assumed that the top deck would be for the premium passengers, including the Y+, and the bottom was for the WHY plebs.
You just opened these closed eyes to show that QF could do that and it would make me:evil: :evil:

 

[NM]

NOOOOOOOO:!:
How dumb am I? I have always assumed that the top deck would be for the premium passengers, including the Y+, and the bottom was for the WHY plebs.
You just opened these closed eyes to show that QF could do that and it would make me:evil: :evil:

It will be interesting to see what each airline does with the cabin layouts. Airbus imply there is lots of flexibility:

The A380’s built-in cabin arrangement flexibility will allow airlines to differentiate their products and develop solutions for all potential market mixes. Some operators might, for example, choose to seat their First and Business class passengers on the upper deck –providing a corporate jet-like environment for these clients – while configuring the A380’s main deck for an all-Economy layout.

The cabin mock-up I saw at Le Borget last year (see this photo) has 3x4x3 economy on the lower deck and 2x2x2 regional business or premium econpmy (were not flat beds, more like BA WT+ type cradles) on the upper deck. But I guess I have always been assuming the F cabin will be in the forward main deck region similar to the way airlines configure 747s.