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BA invites tenders for new aircraft

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freqbugsmasher

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From ninemsn (-edited to add)

"British Airways put out tenders on Wednesday for a long-awaited replacement of its fleet of 114 long-haul Boeing aircraft in a deal that could generate crucial orders for European rival Airbus.


Europe's third-biggest airline, which wants to take delivery of the first new planes by early 2009, said it was too soon to say how many planes it would buy, although analysts said the bill would be at least $US7 billion ($A9.31 billion).


An early order date could benefit Boeing, since Airbus is struggling to launch its mid-sized A350 model - now set for 2012 deliveries at the earliest - and will still be working through a series of delayed orders for the first of its A380 superjumbo customers.


However, BA Chief Executive Willie Walsh did not dismiss the possibility of including A380s in the orders and said he was confident that problems with the model could be resolved.


Analysts expected the orders would be allotted on a winner-take-all basis."

more


Anyone willing to bet that the 380 problems may hurt them in getting this one, along with no viable competitor to the 787?
 
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simongr

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Interesting - is this the thing that will make the A380 achieve its target production numbers? I wonder if there is any way for Airbus to ramp up production if it had more orders confirmed...
 

Kiwi Flyer

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simongr said:
Interesting - is this the thing that will make the A380 achieve its target production numbers? I wonder if there is any way for Airbus to ramp up production if it had more orders confirmed...
They already have lots more orders than they can deliver for the next several years.
 

freqbugsmasher

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They already have lots more orders than they can deliver for the next several years.
And the A350 looks a long way away at best. Shame, the competition wouldn't hurt anyone.
 

maninblack

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Take a bet. They will be going with Boeing. 747-8's and 787's with a big fat order for RR Trent engines. They currently run nearly 170 Boeing aircraft, 134 of which are mid-long hall 57 of which are 744's, the rest are mid capacity, 757, 767, 777.

Their 66 Airbus are all shorthaul equipment.

BA still flies a huge number of middle distance and seasonal routes. USA, Canada, Caribbean, Africa, Middle East, sub-continent etc. The 787's in their various forms would have to look good, After all they will be a whole generation ahead of the A330/340 and at least a few years ahead in delivery of the A350 from what we hear.

Their maintenance and engineering and operational expertise is largely based around Boeing equipment and I wonder if they will see a need for a 550 seat aircraft.

But of course, I could be wrong.
 

jasonja3

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From the limited reading I have done on Airbus of late, one school of thought is they may want to consolidate their manufacturing plants to reduce problems like they are having now with the A380 (if they can sort out the political issues with this).

If they could secure such a large order like BA's, that I would assume ran for some years, coupled with their existing orders it could facilitate this consolidation, and streamline their processes. Outside of this, I don't see how Airbus could actually compete against Boeing given the expected delivery times and lack of proven products.

I think Boeing will start ramping up development of the 747-8 passenger version, not as a long time competitor to the A380, but short term availability, and to fill an ongoing need for this size aircraft, for some carriers.
 

Altair

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maninblack said:
Take a bet. They will be going with Boeing. 747-8's and 787's with a big fat order for RR Trent engines.
747-8 only come with GEnX enignes. The 787 can have both GE and RR.
The timeframe seems to indicate that Airbus is out of the picture unless a major A380 customer cancels. I doubt that Airbus can convince an existing customer to further delay their A380 order, unless it is TG or MH but they do not have substanial orders (6 and 2?).
I thought the bulk of BA 777 are still quite young so they may not be part of this fleet renewal. So that could mean they are looking for a 747 and 767 replacement which once again points them to Boeing not Airbus.
I do not think that AIrbus has been counting on BA ordering the A380 for sometime although they were natural operators of the type when they designed it, LHR restrictions.
If BA does order the 747-8 then that will give us two new aircraft types for us OW flyers to get to LHR.:mrgreen: .
I personally would like the A380 for the room in WHY.:D
 

maninblack

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Altair said:
747-8 only come with GEnX enignes.

I personally would like the A380 for the room in WHY.:D
I wouldn't mind betting RR can develop an engine for the 747-8 if they see a need (orders) but you are right, they have not been part of the program at this stage and I think that some BA 777's already use GE engines.

I wonder though about the mystique surrounding Y class in the A-380. Yes the cabin will be marginally bigger than the 744, but which airline has actually guaranteed that Y passengers will actually get more personal space, wider seat and more importantly greater pitch.
 

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maninblack said:
I wonder though about the mystique surrounding Y class in the A-380. Yes the cabin will be marginally bigger than the 744, but which airline has actually guaranteed that Y passengers will actually get more personal space, wider seat and more importantly greater pitch.
No mystique about it. It's not "marginally bigger", it's half again as big. It's a 767 flying welded on top of a 747.

SQ is planning 475 seats, and Qantas 501. So whichever way you cut it, that's a lot of extra space. Maybe it will end up as many more F and J seats, but I suspect that the proportions devoted to the three classes will remain more or less the same, because just where are these extra F and J bums to fill the seats going to come from? And where are the displaced Y pax going to go?
 

Altair

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maninblack said:
I wouldn't mind betting RR can develop an engine for the 747-8 if they see a need (orders) but you are right, they have not been part of the program at this stage and I think that some BA 777's already use GE engines.
GE has been guaranteed a monopoly by Boeing on the 747-8. That is because GE was willing to be a risk partner in providing funding for the development of the 747-8. This has also occurred with the 777-200LR, 777-200F and 777-300ER. RR was willing to develop engines and allow competitors but not willing to provide funding for the airframe development. GE saw that the new 777 types would be niche airframes so they did not want to share the small market with a competitor, they appear to have gotten that right with the 777-200LR but are reaping it big time with the 777-300ER.

maninblack said:
II wonder though about the mystique surrounding Y class in the A-380. Yes the cabin will be marginally bigger than the 744, but which airline has actually guaranteed that Y passengers will actually get more personal space, wider seat and more importantly greater pitch.
Part of the weakness of the A380 design is the two deck layout.
1/ It reduces the amount of cargo space, especially relative to single deck aircraft, so more passengers and bags means less cargo. Have you seen how much cargo comes out of an EK 777? :shock:
2/ The main cabin is not wide enough for 11 across seating, unless they make the walls very thin but with the current materials it is not possible. At 10 across it has more room than a 747 and still use 777 width or Airbus widebody width seats (18 in?)
3/ I think the first few years will see the A380 with the low end of seats but as the market grows the airlines will be packing us in WHY, like what happened with the 747. I also think that first class may go and most airlines adopt premium economy cabins that will take us back to business clss 80's style (look at VS new offering).
4/ I am not that tall, 5'8", so 32 in is fine for me but I do like a wider seat so to avoid shouldering my seat mates...and I am 67 kgs, does that make me obese?:confused: This is why I like 777, not EK, and Airbuss widebodies as they give you that little bit of extra width. Oh NZ 747 are one of hte best.:D
I dread the QF 787 as I think they will have 9 across seats from the start not just for Jetstar, but I hope not.
 

NM

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maninblack said:
Take a bet. They will be going with Boeing. 747-8's and 787's with a big fat order for RR Trent engines. They currently run nearly 170 Boeing aircraft, 134 of which are mid-long hall 57 of which are 744's, the rest are mid capacity, 757, 767, 777.
Yep, I see an order for 747-8 and 787 and possibly more 777 of various models.

For Airbus to win this one they will need to be offering some very attractive pricing - which they have been known to do.
 

NM

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Skyring said:
No mystique about it. It's not "marginally bigger", it's half again as big. It's a 767 flying welded on top of a 747.

SQ is planning 475 seats, and Qantas 501. So whichever way you cut it, that's a lot of extra space. Maybe it will end up as many more F and J seats, but I suspect that the proportions devoted to the three classes will remain more or less the same, because just where are these extra F and J bums to fill the seats going to come from? And where are the displaced Y pax going to go?
I think the reference was more about cabin width than floor surface area.

And we just need to look at the new SQ F and J cabins to see where all the extra space goes - and its not to the 350+ Y passengers.
 

maninblack

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Skyring said:
No mystique about it. It's not "marginally bigger", it's half again as big. It's a 767 flying welded on top of a 747.
Yes NM is right. I am talking about individual personal space. Qantas has not told us any info on just how much more personal space an individual in Y will get. The "mystique" may be better desribed as hype, like all the special features that were being discussed, showers, lounge areas, business centre, restuarant, etc etc i doubt any of these will happen, and they certainly won't happen in Y. They are buying these planes so they can get more bottoms on a single flight. Personally I don't find anything attractive about the A380 concept, other than the engineering achievement.
 

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maninblack said:
Yes NM is right. I am talking about individual personal space. Qantas has not told us any info on just how much more personal space an individual in Y will get. The "mystique" may be better desribed as hype, like all the special features that were being discussed, showers, lounge areas, business centre, restuarant, etc etc i doubt any of these will happen, and they certainly won't happen in Y. They are buying these planes so they can get more bottoms on a single flight. Personally I don't find anything attractive about the A380 concept, other than the engineering achievement.
I really doubt the Y passengers will get any more personal space than currently on the 747. I expect the seat width and pitch will be basically the same as they are now. Perhaps a slight pitch improvement (say another inch) but unlikely to be much better than that.

Personally I would like to see QF introduce a Premium Economy cabin on the A380, but I am not really expecting that to happen. I leave myself hopeful for a pleasant surprise :-| .

I expect the difference between the quoted 472 seats for SQ vs 501 seats for QF will be in the extra space afforded to the new F and J seats that SQ has just launched. They are certainly not falling into the space-efficient category.
 
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Altair

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NM said:
I really doubt the Y passengers will get any more personal space than currently on the 747. I expect the seat width and pitch will be basically the same as they are now. Perhaps a slight pitch improvement (say another inch) but unlikely to be much better than that.

Personally I would like to see QF introduce a Premium Economy cabin on the A380, but I am not really expecting that to happen. I leave myself hopeful for a pleasant surprise :-| .

I expect the difference between the quoted 472 seats for SQ vs 501 seats for QF will be in the extra space afforded to the new F and J seats that SQ has just launched. They are certainly not falling into the space-efficient category.
I doubt we will see an increase in seat pitch, if anything 1 extra inch, QF has 31 inches but their slimline seats may give an extra half inch. For a long haul that is not comfortable but I can tolerate it, just. The A380 cabin is just not wide enough for an extra seat or aisle. So the seats will either be larger than QF standard, which is optimized for 747 17.5 inches which translates to wider aisles, or they will use the seats that give at least an extra inch which I do notice, I even notice the little bit of room in an A320 over a 737.:)
 

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In regard to the A380 (when compared to a 747) available fuselage cubic capacity is nearly doubled while the actual payload measured in weight is increased by less than a third.

With this in mind, it becomes apparent in raw terms that more space can be given to the SLF. Hence the possibilty of larger seats.

Code:
         Volume(m³)    Payload(Kg)

747-400      765          51,545  

A380       1,500          66,400

Variance    196%            129%
 

maninblack

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serfty said:
With this in mind, it becomes apparent in raw terms that more space can be given to the SLF. Hence the possibilty of larger seats.

[/code]
Sure but using this logic you would get more personal space in Y on a 777 than on a 767 and more in a 747 than on a 777 but depending on the airline of course, you generally don't.
 

Altair

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maninblack said:
Sure but using this logic you would get more personal space in Y on a 777 than on a 767 and more in a 747 than on a 777 but depending on the airline of course, you generally don't.
Hmmm....the industry also count the aisles in the space category. If the seats, (pitch and width) are the same in the 767 and 777 then you will get more "personal space" in the 777 because there will be more room in the aisle, which means fewers bumps for those in the aisle. The 777 at 9 across also has more "space" per passenger than a 747 at 10 across. Also every 777 that I have been on has had the Boeing signature interior which definitely gives more headroom than an Airbus product, which will include the A380, so that creates an impression of more personal space.
The 777-300 have greater cargo capacity than a 747-400.
 
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