BA 777 on fire at LAS

[Winston1]

It would be good if the overhead bins could be remotely locked by FAs to prevent people from retrieving their luggage.
It comes down to people being selfish. A LOT of people believe rules and laws are for other people, and not for them. They are special.

Honestly, if I encountered a person blocking an isle in an emergency (retrieving baggage), I would not be politely asking to go past. I'd be shoving as hard as I could.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

A LOT of people believe rules and laws are for other people, and not for them. They are special.

As outlined previously, while this might be true for some people, for others, the retrieval of baggage can't be explained in that manner. It's not necessarily a rational thought process. It may appear selfish, but it doesn't necessarily mean it was a deliberate, willful act to hamper the evacuation.

This is not a defense for those carrying baggage, but the solution perhaps lies in understanding the psychology, and then how to tackle that:

• accept some passengers, for whatever reason, will retrieve bags
• change safety briefings and/or introduce more compelling messaging to reinforce the need to leave belongings
• ensure current evacuation requirements (90 seconds, using half of the exits) can still be met even with some/many passengers carrying bags
• if standards can't be met, look at how to bring them back into compliance. Perhaps wider aisles (no more 3-4-3 777s), or perhaps a greater exit door-to-passenger ratio, etc

Just as flight crews don't willfully crash planes (with very rare exceptions), it's probably fair to apply the same culture to passenger behaviour as we do to other professionals working in the airline industry: understand the 'why' and 'how' and proceed from there.

 

[Winston1]

• accept some passengers, for whatever reason, will retrieve bags

yes it will happen, but no we shouldn't just 'accept it'. It needs to be stopped.
id like to see penalties levied at those who breach such a serious safety protocol.

 

[dajop]

Two things here ..... 1) People retrieving stuff from overhead lockers. Clearly a no and you'd think it would be easy enough to illustrate why this is a big no no (obviously not though) and 2) people grabbing a small handbag from their feet, or indeed that they are already clutching. Much more difficult to change behaviour on this one I think.

Personally neither is a problem for me I will always take my passport and wallet and phone with me (unless it is an emergency landing from cruise ) as they are always in pockets for takeoff and landing and it would be a delay of I ditched them.

 

[jb747]

In many ways it comes back to the problems of too much cabin luggage. Perhaps a 'solution' there is to ban anything with wheels. People won't have anywhere near as much if they actually have to carry​ it.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

[/LIST]

yes it will happen, but no we shouldn't just 'accept it'. It needs to be stopped.
id like to see penalties levied at those who breach such a serious safety protocol.

I think the best we can hope for is to try and limit the instances of this occurring. And where it does occur, try and manage the impact.

Levying penalties? I think that is perhaps a step too far at this stage. It would be very difficult to draw up an effective law to cover it.

 

[marki]

It would be good if the overhead bins could be remotely locked by FAs to prevent people from retrieving their luggage.
It comes down to people being selfish. A LOT of people believe rules and laws are for other people, and not for them. They are special.

Honestly, if I encountered a person blocking an isle in an emergency (retrieving baggage), I would not be politely asking to go past. I'd be shoving as hard as I could.

In this sort of situation your focus is singular anyway your on a mission to save your skin literally and metaphorically any delay could cost you dearly.

 

[Winston1]

Levying penalties? I think that is perhaps a step too far at this stage. It would be very difficult to draw up an effective law to cover it.

Quite possibly, but I think there's also the impact of people seeing others doing it (as in this case), and saying to themselves - if they're going to do it, then so am I..
People need to be shown that it's not acceptable, and as with crime, there needs to be a deterrent. If there was no punishment for stealing, I'd wager more people would be doing it..

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Quite possibly, but I think there's also the impact of people seeing others doing it (as in this case), and saying to themselves - if they're going to do it, then so am I..
People need to be shown that it's not acceptable, and as with crime, there needs to be a deterrent. If there was no punishment for stealing, I'd wager more people would be doing it..

So where do you draw the line? A pilot crashes or endangers a plane through their own negligence/incompetence/fatigue... no penalty because it's a blame free culture and we look to learn, rather than punish. But a passenger who takes a bag, without any logical explanation, and without malice, gets stiffed by a fine?

Or do we sit with each passenger who carried a bag and try to understand the 'why' and 'how'?

 

[mjt57]

• if standards can't be met, look at how to bring them back into compliance. Perhaps wider aisles (no more 3-4-3 777s),

I doubt that will change. It will get worse, if anything.

Dunno what BA's 777 seating was in this instance, but if it was 3-4-3 then they'll argue that it's OK cos everyone got off the aircraft safely (well, most everyone).

As for my comments about people having their meds in their handbags or whatever, you need to look at it from their perspective. Often they'll see them as an absolute essential. Try getting them replaced in say, DXB, for example. Some drugs which are legal here are prohibited there. Same for the US.

Hence the panic setting in and them doing what they think is necessary. May not be right, but try explaining to them "oh, you'll be right. Just go and see a doctor to get new meds..."

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Dunno what BA's 777 seating was in this instance, but if it was 3-4-3 then they'll argue that it's OK cos everyone got off the aircraft safely (well, most everyone).

BA's 777s are all 3-3-3 according to their website.

No doubt carriers such as EK and NZ have satisfied exit simulations for 3-4-3, but the question is whether they have done this with pax stopping to retrieve baggage?

One of the problems, no doubt, is that we've had a number of recent evacuations, all with people carrying baggage, with little or no perceived impact in the evacuation process (ie, everyone out safely with little or no injury). But the alternative is worse - you wouldn't want to have an accident with a pile of dead bodies just to use as an example. There needs to be other methods employed to restrict the practice.

 

[jb747]

No doubt carriers such as EK and NZ have satisfied exit simulations for 3-4-3, but the question is whether they have done this with pax stopping to retrieve baggage?

They don't have to. You're not supposed to have luggage. If you want to add that as a requirement, then you're going to have to accept many more people being injured on the slides, plus it certainly won't take even close to 90 seconds. More like 5 plus minutes. In that time frame, you could well have a fire that's nicely established, and many people unable to get out at all.

 

[opusman]

Say it took 2 extra seconds on average per passenger for them to retrieve their bags - that adds up to over 13 minutes longer on a full 747!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Say it took 2 extra seconds on average per passenger for them to retrieve their bags - that adds up to over 13 minutes longer on a full 747!

That's assuming each passenger stopped to collect their bags one at a time, and only did so when the previous person had finished.

In reality, many people would be retrieving their bag simultaneously. So the 2 seconds wouldn't be compounded. We have seen from actual evacuations, with baggage, that it takes less time.

 

[opusman]

That's assuming each passenger stopped to collect their bags one at a time, and only did so when the previous person had finished.

In reality, many people would be retrieving their bag simultaneously. So the 2 seconds wouldn't be compounded. We have seen from actual evacuations, with baggage, that it takes less time.

In a normal disembarkation only a small fraction of pax can retrieve their bag simultaneously simply because the aisles aren't that big. I can't see it being any more efficient in an emergency situation. And obviously some would take longer than others...

 

[MEL_Traveller]

They don't have to. You're not supposed to have luggage. If you want to add that as a requirement, then you're going to have to accept many more people being injured on the slides, plus it certainly won't take even close to 90 seconds. More like 5 plus minutes. In that time frame, you could well have a fire that's nicely established, and many people unable to get out at all.

You're not supposed to, but it appears the current reality is different.

It's not a test to enable an evacuation with passengers carrying luggage, it's a test to ensure requirements can still be met given some people may (will) carry baggage (even though they're not supposed to).

 

[jb747]

You're not supposed to, but it appears the current reality is different.

It's not a test to enable an evacuation with passengers carrying luggage, it's a test to ensure requirements can still be met given some people may (will) carry baggage (even though they're not supposed to).

They can't be met if people take luggage.....

 

[MEL_Traveller]

In a normal disembarkation only a small fraction of pax can retrieve their bag simultaneously simply because the aisles aren't that big. I can't see it being any more efficient in an emergency situation. And obviously some would take longer than others...

There is some data on this. AF 358 with 297 passengers was evacuated in under 90 seconds, with what appears (if I've read it correctly) as many as 49% of passengers attempting to carry baggage with them: accident report: http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2005/a05h0002/a05h0002.pdf

Air France emergency procedures called for cabin crew to inform passengers during anevacuation that they must leave their carry-on baggage on board the aircraft by shoutingìLAISSEZ VOS BAGAGES/LEAVE YOUR LUGGAGE.î The cabin crew of AFR358 shoutedthis command throughout the occurrence evacuation in both languages, as per their emergencyprocedures.

Despite this order, 49 per cent of questionnaire respondents attempted to bring their carry-onbaggage with them when they exited the aircraft. However, 48 per cent reported that carry-onbaggage slowed the evacuation, in that the aisles leading to the emergency exits were blockedby people retrieving their baggage.

So the sense of urgency does come in to play to reduce time frames.

 

[dajop]

Still this thread is discussing the binary - no baggage or taking from overhead lockers. I know the right answer for stuff at people's feet or in their laps is to leave behind. but what is the delay like for doing that. I am reasonable sure if during an evacuation people were stuffing around with lockers I'd be fairly assertive. If grabbing stuff from their feet is probably be less assertive unless I was in a window and they were delaying me.

 

[mjt57]

BA's 777s are all 3-3-3 according to their website.

No doubt carriers such as EK and NZ have satisfied exit simulations for 3-4-3, but the question is whether they have done this with pax stopping to retrieve baggage?

Simulations are one thing, reality can be different. People, expecting to be burned alive will panic, some more so than others. Reasoned thought goes out the window.

And aside from delays in retrieving carryons or tripping over stuff, I'd imagine that the slides wouldn't take too kindly to sharp edged objects being dragged or bounced down them, or getting stuck and stopping people from sliding down safely. Plus, having both hands free may help you get down the slide safely.

I think that if I were in this situation, I'd probably stuff what meds that I could down my shirt or whatever before I got out of my seat, if it was possible.

Otherwise just pray that (a) you're able to get them afterwards or (b) that whatever country that you're in, if out of Oz, that you're able to get them replaced.