Ask The Pilot

[Mrmrbagley]

Hi there.
I was on the longest REX flight of my life this week from Sydney to Broken Hil, over 5.5hours! The Dubbo to Broken Hill portion took 4.5hrs as after a failed approach due to low cloud and poor visibility we circled in the air for over 2 hours waiting for conditions to improve. There were 2 other Qantas planes circling above us including QF2017, a Dash 8 400. We eventually did land. We actually heard QF2017 approach to land just after us but it aborted and both Qantas flights immediately then diverted to Mildura.
I would love to ask two questions. Besides fuel are there any other restrictions to how long you can circle prior to attempting landing?
Also I was surprised that the larger Dash 8 planes did not land when our little Rexy SAAB340 managed to. Do you need greater visibility for larger planes?
Thanks

 

[jb747]

JB, which aircraft autopilot handled the crosswind/gusty/high wind approaches better. Airbus or Boeing? And any specific model?

Overall the A380 (I expect the A350 would be much the same, with the 330 and 320 being a bit less capable). The 747 was appreciably better than the 767.

But, the (wind/gust/crosswindlimits of the autopilot coupled landings were less than those for a manual landing, so when it's really nasty, you have to do the last bit yourself. And if I had to manually fly...then the 767.

 

[jb747]

Hi there.
I was on the longest REX flight of my life this week from Sydney to Broken Hil, over 5.5hours! The Dubbo to Broken Hill portion took 4.5hrs as after a failed approach due to low cloud and poor visibility we circled in the air for over 2 hours waiting for conditions to improve. There were 2 other Qantas planes circling above us including QF2017, a Dash 8 400. We eventually did land. We actually heard QF2017 approach to land just after us but it aborted and both Qantas flights immediately then diverted to Mildura.

I would love to ask two questions. Besides fuel are there any other restrictions to how long you can circle prior to attempting landing?

In many ways fuel is everything. Things like flight time limits come into the equation, but assuming you have the gas, nothing really stops you from holding for hours. Other than boredom.

The equation is never as simple as it seems though. For instance, the destination may not have required an alternate, but simply an amount of holding fuel. In that case, once you've flown past the decision point, you have no alternative other than landing, with the only variable being the amount of holding that you do beforehand. The larger Dash 8s may have had sufficient fuel for both holding and diversion.

Also I was surprised that the larger Dash 8 planes did not land when our little Rexy SAAB340 managed to. Do you need greater visibility for larger planes?

There are speed based approach criteria, but I think the Saab and the Dash are both Cat 3, so not relevant here.

 

[Captain Halliday]

I honestly can’t see a reason why they would do that to be honest.

The only things I can come up with are that an international aircraft may have been given taxi clearance first? I think an Air NZ aircraft may had taxied in front?

The other thing was maybe apron congestion with aircraft pushing back or the gate was still occupied by an aircraft who was close to calling for pushback. They have sent us on a bit of a tarmac tour for that reason before.

I’m flying into BNE this afternoon and they’re using 19L/R so we’ll see what happens

I wondered about hearing a taxi cleaning for NZ and then following that by mistake.

Related Q: If you have an untidy landing, when do you debrief that? On the taxi or at the gate?

It’s related because the landing was a shocker IMHO.

Nasty crosswind or possibly windsheer that induced a very pronounced roll from the threshold right down to the ground.

The was enough roll that I was expecting a go around.

So I wondered if while debriefing the landing they simply took a wrong turn.

All speculative of course, but highly unusual.

 

[markis10]

Looks like a bit of FOD was reported in your path and Car 10 sent to investigate while you took the long way, those Kiwis like to litter ay bro!

 

[Captain Halliday]

Looks like a bit of DOD was reported in your path and Car 10 sent to investigate while you took the long way, those Kiwis like to litter ay bro!

DOD?

Do you mean FOD?

 

[markis10]

Yes FOD, *&*** spellcheck

 

[jb747]

Related Q: If you have an untidy landing, when do you debrief that? On the taxi or at the gate?

If it was the Captain’s landing, probably never. Realistically, there’s never very much to say. Almost certainly all parties involved know exactly what happened, and why.

It’s related because the landing was a shocker IMHO. Nasty crosswind or possibly windsheer that induced a very pronounced roll from the threshold right down to the ground.

Given the conditions you describe, simply staying on the black bit might have been considered a success. For anyone who is critical of any landing, I always ask how their last landing of an equal aircraft in similar conditions was.

 

[RSD]

If it was the Captain’s landing, probably never. Realistically, there’s never very much to say. Almost certainly all parties involved know exactly what happened, and why.

Would there sometimes be a discussion about whether a go-around might have been a better option?

 

[Captain Halliday]

black bit might have been considered a success. For anyone who is critical of any landing, I always ask how their last landing of an equal aircraft in similar

For the record, my description of the landing was specific to the landing and the conditions - which were poor. I’ve no idea what happened on the flight deck and therefore offer no comment on that.

 

[NM]

For the record, my description of the landing was specific to the landing and the conditions - which were poor. I’ve no idea what happened on the flight deck and therefore offer no comment on that.

They landed on the black stuff and did not need to use TOGA power to taxi to the terminal ... result = acceptable landing and given the conditions, perhaps a virtual high-5 (or a wink/nod) between the flight crew members.

But has made for some interesting discussion from those who know best.