Ask The Pilot

[ozmille]

I was on an Air NZ 744 last year that did the most smooth, gentle landing I've ever experienced on any plane. Even the cabin crew commented on it. I've been curious as to the factors that made it so notably different to any other landing. Would it have been a fluke, or was he the best pilot in the world, does SIN have better radar/long super-smooth runways etc? Even in 20-odd landings in SIN, I can't recall a smoother landing, but I also haven't been back since.

Had a very smooth almost landing in YUL once in terrible weather on AF and last minute we pulled back up and the captain announced that we had a missed approach because the wind had turned. Does this happen often and what is the reason for this "the wind has changed" missed approach?

 

[jb747]

Had a very smooth almost landing in YUL once in terrible weather on AF and last minute we pulled back up and the captain announced that we had a missed approach because the wind had turned. Does this happen often and what is the reason for this "the wind has changed" missed approach?

Pretty hard to say what happened on that day....

But...if you're calling it an almost landing, then I'll assume you were within 100 feet of the ground. Around that point you'd be looking for the wind to be within the landing limits. I took a 747 around in London a couple of years ago, from about 200 feet. Wind at 2000 feet was at 72 knot crosswind. At 1000 feet, it was around 50 knots. At 200 feet, I made the call that it would not be within limits by touchdown, and so we went around. It was worth a look, but at some point you have to make the call.

But, a sudden switch to a strong tailwind, and at low level there should be no attempt to contain it. Just go around. It's always the safe option.

Think of the example above...72 knots is roughly 140 kph...sideways....weather is not something to take lightly.

 

[Tortuga]

jb747 you are a legend, thanks for giving your time here !

I would like to know about flying in bad weather conditions. I had a bad experience after taking off from Rio, we went right through a thunderstorm. Lighting was blowing up right outside the window, the plane was ascending and descending at very rapid rates and at one point I was convinced we were in a lot of trouble. I looked around and everyone had their eyes closed holding on to their seat. I know that Aircraft are built to withstand lighting and storms but it still seems to be one of the main factors for major airline incidents. As the pilot, when you go through these types of situation with extreme weather do you ever get scared or feel the aircraft is more vulnerable? Or do you simply increase your focus on the job at hand to make sure the aircraft is functioning properly?

I would also like to know when a major incident happens like the Air France disaster off Brazil, and the authorities come up with an idea of what caused the disaster - how fast does the "solution" get passed onto the airline industry to avoid a repeat. I know that flying has become safer over time due to increased regulations and standards. Thanks for your time !

 

[jb747]

I would like to know about flying in bad weather conditions. I had a bad experience after taking off from Rio, we went right through a thunderstorm. Lighting was blowing up right outside the window, the plane was ascending and descending at very rapid rates and at one point I was convinced we were in a lot of trouble. I looked around and everyone had their eyes closed holding on to their seat. I know that Aircraft are built to withstand lighting and storms but it still seems to be one of the main factors for major airline incidents. As the pilot, when you go through these types of situation with extreme weather do you ever get scared or feel the aircraft is more vulnerable? Or do you simply increase your focus on the job at hand to make sure the aircraft is functioning properly?

The best way to handle weather is simply not to be in it in the first place.

Thunderstorms are particularly dangerous, not because of the lightning, but because of the downdrafts that they can hold. I've waited, both in the air, and on the ground, for weather to pass, that I didn't like the look of. In both cases aircraft from other airlines continued, so the treatment of weather varies with the airline culture.

Aircraft are regularly hit by lightning, and in general it does nothing to the aircraft at all. What does scare the beejezus out of the passengers though, is the sound of the thunder. It's a bit loud......

In the cruise you also go around them, but no matter how rough things become, it really isn't dangerous, simply because you are (or at least should be) a long way from the ground.

I would also like to know when a major incident happens like the Air France disaster off Brazil, and the authorities come up with an idea of what caused the disaster - how fast does the "solution" get passed onto the airline industry to avoid a repeat.

Well, you do get hints pretty quickly. Even before any real info was available, Airbus had modified some elements of the checklist, and a couple of Airbus mandated sim exercises had appeared. No official info has been disseminated from them to the pilots though (that I know of) ... The BEA will have its say soon enough.

I know that flying has become safer over time due to increased regulations and standards.

I don't think regulations, or the regulatory authorities have helped much at all. The advent of better nav aids has certainly done it's bit, as has the long training history of most of the major airlines. It will be interesting to see what happens in the future, as pilots who have very little real piloting background, and airlines that say they are safe, without actually having the training systems in place, or even pay enough to attract the better qualified, become more common.

 

[Tortuga]

Appreciate the answers, thanks. I have spent the last year flying in and out of Argentina, flights are always delayed or cancelled - union strikes every month, it really is a mess !! I get the sense that on a few occasions there has been pressure to not cancel a flight (the one where we went through the thunderstorm was immediately after take off and the flight had already been delayed 3 hours).

I also noticed here pilots don't seem to try and avoid bad weather if it will affect the arrival time, they just go through it. You're correct that the one thing that makes me comfortable is the fact we are 30,000 feet + above the ground which leaves room for rapid descent problems. For some reason I feel safer during daytime flights, I know with the advent of nav aids etc it wouldn't make much different but if you ended up with a total system shut down I'm sure it would be a bit more helpful to have some visual references.

I get the impression you seem to think the quality and time spent training and recruiting pilots might decrease with the increase in technology. If this is true it is very sad because at the end of the day if something does go wrong, and it does happen - the plane will be in a lot better position with someone who has a lot of experience. Final question - did Top Gun have any affect on your career aspirations to be a pilot

 

[jb747]

I get the sense that on a few occasions there has been pressure to not cancel a flight (the one where we went through the thunderstorm was immediately after take off and the flight had already been delayed 3 hours).

That that certainly exists, thought not necessarily from the companies. Someone might have had a hot date.

I also noticed here pilots don't seem to try and avoid bad weather if it will affect the arrival time, they just go through it. You're correct that the one thing that makes me comfortable is the fact we are 30,000 feet + above the ground which leaves room for rapid descent problems. For some reason I feel safer during daytime flights, I know with the advent of nav aids etc it wouldn't make much different but if you ended up with a total system shut down I'm sure it would be a bit more helpful to have some visual references.

Sometimes there aren't all that many choices. You pick the least bad, and go through that. And remember too, that your concept of bad weather almost certainly differs dramatically from that of the pilot.

I get the impression you seem to think the quality and time spent training and recruiting pilots might decrease with the increase in technology. If this is true it is very sad because at the end of the day if something does go wrong, and it does happen - the plane will be in a lot better position with someone who has a lot of experience.

Contrary to popular opinion, the high tech aircraft are not necessarily any easier to operate than the lower tech ones. But, when they suffer system failures, they can become much harder to operate than the old. An Airbus can play up in ways that an old 747 couldn't imagine. Plus, when it does play up, it hands a pile of 'manure' to a pilot who actually has a lot less hands on time than at any time previously.

But, the real problem relates to management (worldwide) that seems to think that technology is a replacement for decent training and backgrounds. This is a very common factor with the LCCs, and will spread. Basically, the dumbing down of the job, mainly so that the wages can be lowered.

Final question - did Top Gun have any affect on your career aspirations to be a pilot

Top Gun came out after my career as a military pilot was already over. Had some nice pictures of aircraft, but the people were depicted as childish....

 

[ps107]

I stumbled upon this series while looking for something else. Good walk through of what goes on during a short 737 flight.

YouTube - ‪AirsideTV - Air NZ B737-200 Flight 651 Part 1/3‬‏
YouTube - ‪Airsidetv - Air NZ B737-200 Flight 651 Part 2/3‬‏
YouTube - ‪Airsidetv - Air NZ B737-200 Flight 651 Part 3/3‬‏

Almost makes me wish I'd learnt to drive a plane but then I'd have to wear short-sleeved shirts and wouldn't get status credits

 

[greg-777]

Hello

I've always wondered if you need to dump fuel at 30,000 fet for a landing so you are no over weight, does the fuel evoporate before reaching the ground, and do you need permission to do so first as obviously there is a significant cost involved in refueling for the sector you were suppose to fly.

Question 2 is why does a pilot line up before take off or do a rolling take off other than holding for other aircraft to clear ie heavy are there other reasons.

All the best I enjoy reading your replies I learn so much for a hobby of flying commercial

 

[greg-777]

One last thing I noticed recently in the us on domestic they provide the crusing altitude of xx_ feet but not in Australia is there any reason as I find that quite interesting.

 

[anat0l]

One last thing I noticed recently in the us on domestic they provide the crusing altitude of xx_ feet but not in Australia is there any reason as I find that quite interesting.

I've heard some announcements in the air whilst flying in Australia remarking about our altitude. In some other cases not, but it's certainly not the case of "not at all".

In saying that, whilst some information is certainly quite common to hear from every pilot (like making sure to remind everyone to keep their seat belts fastened whilst seated - undoubtedly very handy advice!), it's not as if they are giving these PAs according to some regimented script. At least, that's how I see it, but of course I'd like to hear what jb747 has to say about this.

 

[JohnM]

This is a great thread.

Special thanks to jb747 for his tireless input. A phenomenal 'real' advertisement for QF. Too bad the audience is so limited/select.

It would be nice if there were other major commercial airline pilots out there who could be encouraged give jb747 some relief from the bombardment of questions.

Who can line up a VA pilot to do so?

 

[nlagalle]

Hello
Question 2 is why does a pilot line up before take off or do a rolling take off other than holding for other aircraft to clear ie heavy are there other reasons.

The tower can give an instruction to line up or cleared for take-off, or cleared for immediate take-off while you are at the holding point. Yes there could be an aircraft waiting to vacate, another aircraft landing on the other runway. Sometimes separation may be required for wake turbulence as well. I've only deliberately lined up when performing a short take off, where the engine is throttled up while holding onto the brakes. That is for a light aircraft though. There may be differences for heavies.

 

[dfcatch]

An ATC question came up the other day...

Why would ATC clear a plane for a "visual approach" at say an airport like SYD? Wouldn't they clear them for an "ILS approach"?

Or is the use of ILS implied? It's just a reference to good weather vs a mandated instrument approach in bad weather?

 

[jb747]

I've always wondered if you need to dump fuel at 30,000 fet for a landing so you are no over weight, does the fuel evoporate before reaching the ground, and do you need permission to do so first as obviously there is a significant cost involved in refueling for the sector you were suppose to fly.

Normally 6000 feet is considered the minimum altitude from which dumped fuel won't reach the ground. If you need to dump, the refueling cost is simply not a consideration. I never ask the company for permission to do something that is 'operational'...that's my job. You may ask ATC, as they will want to ensure that you aren't dumping fuel that somebody else can fly into, and many places have preferred areas for this activity. But, if you've declared an emergency, all bets are off, and you can do whatever you feel necessary.

Question 2 is why does a pilot line up before take off or do a rolling take off other than holding for other aircraft to clear ie heavy are there other reasons.

Mostly ATC related. If there are no traffic issues, you will get the take off clearance at the holding point (or approaching it), and you'll normally just roll on to the runway and go. But, if they need to hold you for some reason, but can let you on to the runway, you will be given a 'line up' clearance (crossing runway traffic at Sydney/Melbourne for instance). As often as not, 'line ups' are converted to 'take off' before you stop. The one exception that comes to mind isn't really applicable in Oz, but all of the aircraft will have some form of engine ice shedding procedure. That generally involves running up to 55% N1 or so, for about 10 seconds..but it can be more; and it will have to be done on the runway.

 

[Simsy85]

Awesome read.. very handy for when i'm procrastinating at work!!

 

[jb747]

An ATC question came up the other day...

Why would ATC clear a plane for a "visual approach" at say an airport like SYD? Wouldn't they clear them for an "ILS approach"?

Or is the use of ILS implied? It's just a reference to good weather vs a mandated instrument approach in bad weather?

There are all sorts of variations on what ATC can say to you...and they all have very specific meanings. You will, for instance, often be cleared to 'join the localiser' (which is the tracking part of the ILS)...so that clearance involves the track, but it does not allow you to descend on the glideslope.

Mostly though, in Oz, and specifically at Sydney, ATC want you to call visual, and make a visual approach simply because that relieves them of separation requirements required by what are closely spaced runways. If nobody called visual, it would slow things down a lot (this is not ATC being difficult, but different standards apply for separation depending upon what sort of approach aircraft are doing).

 

[jb747]

Special thanks to jb747 for his tireless input. A phenomenal 'real' advertisement for QF. Too bad the audience is so limited/select.

The aim is to answer aircraft and flying questions, without making it airline-centric. So, there will not be any QF related spin. The audience may be small (I don't know actually), but I'd also expect that it would be one that any marketing department would love to target...but I'm not from marketing.

It would be nice if there were other major commercial airline pilots out there who could be encouraged give jb747 some relief from the bombardment of questions.

Who can line up a VA pilot to do so?

I have a number of friends at VOz and EK...but we'd probably start arguing....or go to the pub.

 

[anat0l]

This may be more an ATC question more than a pilot's one, but I'll try....


I've been on a few domestic flights (probably years back, so not sure if still done) where we are going to SYD. We could've pushed back early but the captain says we have to wait for our designated departure time due to rules set by SYD ATC.

What is the pilot referring to? Is it a case that a plane cannot arrive early for its designated slot time or something?

 

[jb747]

This may be more an ATC question more than a pilot's one, but I'll try....


I've been on a few domestic flights (probably years back, so not sure if still done) where we are going to SYD. We could've pushed back early but the captain says we have to wait for our designated departure time due to rules set by SYD ATC.

What is the pilot referring to? Is it a case that a plane cannot arrive early for its designated slot time or something?

Because Sydney becomes very busy, and also because there is a mandated maximum number of 'movements per hour', it becomes necessary to actively control all of the movements at busy times of the day. So (if I remember correctly, as I haven't flown domestically for a while), if your departure point is within two hours flight time of Sydney, they allocate a departure time from whatever city you happen to be at. That departure time is measured at brakes release at the gate. So, even if you happen to be ready early, and you're going to have a very long taxi, or flight time, you cannot push back even one minute ahead of that allocated time.

It's effectively holding, but done on the ground instead of in the air.

Mind you, it's better than the departure slots in Europe, where missing your allocated slot can involve a wait measured in hours.

 

[markis10]

Mostly though, in Oz, and specifically at Sydney, ATC want you to call visual, and make a visual approach simply because that relieves them of separation requirements required by what are closely spaced runways. If nobody called visual, it would slow things down a lot (this is not ATC being difficult, but different standards apply for separation depending upon what sort of approach aircraft are doing).

The answer by JB747 is correct, its to allow for more aircraft to be handled in the terminal area with less separation standards.

In terms of an ILS, depending on what type of ILS approach is required, ATC often needs to increase separation on the ground as well, if you look out the window you will often see a taxi way has two holding points, one normal and one marked Cat1 or CatII/III etc, these holding points ensure the aircraft waiting do not impact the accuracy of the ILS in operation and reduce the capacity for the airport to hold departing aircraft, in such cases ATC often invoke start clearances so full control is in place before engines are turning/burning.