Are other airlines also as bad as Qantas?

[BD1959]

I did get a refund between the First Class fare I paid and the high economy fare I supposedly agreed to when I accepted the Economy alternative. I also was refused original routing credit as I was getting a refund so only entitled to the Full/Flex Economy fare I now appeared to have paid.

So is the lesson from this (and previous threads posted about refunds and assumed fully-flex Y) that when offered "economy" one should either request details of which fare class or haggle the lowest Y fare class possible to maximise refund? (I know it's always difficult in the heat of the situation - that's why forewarned would be forearmed!)

Regards,

BD

 

[JohnK]

So is the lesson from this (and previous threads posted about refunds and assumed fully-flex Y) that when offered "economy" one should either request details of which fare class or haggle the lowest Y fare class possible to maximise refund? (I know it's always difficult in the heat of the situation - that's why forewarned would be forearmed!)

I am still not sure how any airline can get away with this rubbish? If I pay $479 for business class and the cheapest economy airfare at the time was $89 then I would expect a refund of $390 for a downgrade.

NOT the difference between last minute full economy airfare and the business class airfare I paid. There is every chance that full economy is dearer than cheapest business class so I would owe the airline money for the downgrade? Sorry. Not on.

 

[SpudOz]

I am still not sure how any airline can get away with this rubbish? If I pay $479 for business class and the cheapest economy airfare at the time was $89 then I would expect a refund of $390 for a downgrade.

NOT the difference between last minute full economy airfare and the business class airfare I paid. There is every chance that full economy is dearer than cheapest business class so I would owe the airline money for the downgrade? Sorry. Not on.

Too right.

In fact, I would take it one step further and suggest that there should be "over compensation". The difference between the fares on the day of purchase at the cheapest Y fare and then fork out some extra dollars for the inconvenience and the failure to meet the passenger's expectations.

 

[Isochronous]

Qantas is legally exposed in many of these instances. PM me if you want some confidential advice.

 

[N860CR]

Have people attempted credit card reversals in the past regarding these issues?

I had a massive fight with Expedia regarding a hotel in the Middle East who stuck me in a regular room rather than the suite I'd paid for (as they were full). Expedia's final statement was that "the hotel advises you requested the other room on arrival" and dug their feet in.

I disputed the charge with Westpac, got a full refund and never heard another word (which will be my new first course of action)

Would it be worth trying this with Qantas?

 

[Isochronous]

Have people attempted credit card reversals in the past regarding these issues?

I had a massive fight with Expedia regarding a hotel in the Middle East who stuck me in a regular room rather than the suite I'd paid for (as they were full). Expedia's final statement was that "the hotel advises you requested the other room on arrival" and dug their feet in.

I disputed the charge with Westpac, got a full refund and never heard another word (which will be my new first course of action)

Would it be worth trying this with Qantas?

This is why I am loathe to book hotels through OTAs rather than direct with the property.

 

[juddles]

Closest analogy..... " In this instance, as you paid a special advance purchase rate of $500/night for the executive suite, and the rack rate for our standard room is $490, we'll give you a refund of $10. .... "

And don't forget the "And despite the fact that at the time of your purchase you COULD have got the cough room for just $20 per night, it is the notional rack rate of $490 that applies"

 

[ozbeachbabe]

I am still not sure how any airline can get away with this rubbish? If I pay $479 for business class and the cheapest economy airfare at the time was $89 then I would expect a refund of $390 for a downgrade.

NOT the difference between last minute full economy airfare and the business class airfare I paid. There is every chance that full economy is dearer than cheapest business class so I would owe the airline money for the downgrade? Sorry. Not on.

The question is by what means do you prove that the cheapest available economy fare at the time was $89.00? Screenshot with time and date stamp? It seems as though even if you could prove this the airlines own rules say the economy fare used for comparison purposes will be the full economy fare.

Has anyhone ever had any luck with this method on any airline?

 

[opusman]

The question is by what means do you prove that the cheapest available economy fare at the time was $89.00? Screenshot with time and date stamp? It seems as though even if you could prove this the airlines own rules say the economy fare used for comparison purposes will be the full economy fare.

Has anyhone ever had any luck with this method on any airline?

The airline will obviously stick with this line of reasoning because to do otherwise would open them up to a flood of significant compensation claims (since apparently these substitutions are not at all uncommon).

I think it will take someone to go to court, or at least give a good show of threatening to, for them to back down.

 

[Anna]

If your daughter had been happy to fly on QF to AKL at 5pm arriving after midnight, would that have been in J?

 

[marki]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/10-things-airlines-wont-tell-you-2013-12-13

Interesting article

10 things airlines don't tell you ( examples)

We sold your seat twice.

Don't count on us to get you there on time

Our rewards programs aren’t so rewarding anymore.

It costs us nothing, but you’ll have to pay for a good seat.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Qantas is legally exposed in many of these instances. PM me if you want some confidential advice.

Thank-you that is very kind. However I have gone back to my normal stance. Compensation that is offered with good will is worth having. Compensation that you have to fight for is not. I have sent the email - if something comes of it, terrific, otherwise I am just walking away.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Too right.

In fact, I would take it one step further and suggest that there should be "over compensation". The difference between the fares on the day of purchase at the cheapest Y fare and then fork out some extra dollars for the inconvenience and the failure to meet the passenger's expectations.

This is the way Qantas used to be! In 2008(?) Master FM flew to Istanbul in J. It was booked with Qantas and QF to Bangkok then TK. Coming back there was an issue with the Qantas planes out of London (Engineer strike I think). Master FM's flight from Bangkok to Sydney was going to be delayed. By the time he reached Bangkok he had been rebooked in J with Emirates and a letter of apology turned up a few weeks later with a $500 voucher. That left very warm and fuzzy feelings. These days you almost feel like you are the enemy that has to be fought to ensure Qantas makes enough profit....

 

[Flying mermaid]

If your daughter had been happy to fly on QF to AKL at 5pm arriving after midnight, would that have been in J?

Yes it would have been and I didn't pursue any compensation that time, as to a certain extent a lot of it was broken planes and weather related, so understandable. The only thing that made me cross was how ground staff treated her - just shrugged and walked away, leaving her in tears. She has auto-immune problems, which have already resulted in her having nerves die and losing muscles in her leg. Stress can aggravate and so I was pretty unhappy at this treatment.

However she then found this wonderful woman at Qantas sales who moved her to an Air New Zealand flight in economy and organised for her to have access to the Qantas business lounge. There were more problems coming back, which resulted in 3 of the 4 legs in economy, but on the whole I was OK.

This one is really annoying though. This actually happens a lot in Canberra. Qantas lists large numbers of flights and then on the day cancels some and moves passengers around to earlier/later flights, in order to ensure they aren't flying empty planes. And that's fine - I just always make sure I never try to cut things fine with connections (5 hours is usually what I allow!). However this time it looks to me that they don't have business loads, so are flying an all economy plane to suit them and tough bikkies for the two J passengers they had booked.


I am also cross with myself, as Miss FM asked me not to book Qantas and I ignored her - she is very close to life time silver and I thought it would be useful to get that. Anyway it is not the end of the world - only CBR-MEL. Hopefully nothing happens with the other legs. I insisted on them overnighting in Singapore, so delays and possible public service strikes, shouldn't have any impact on their flights to Langkawi.

 

[JohnK]

Too right.

In fact, I would take it one step further and suggest that there should be "over compensation". The difference between the fares on the day of purchase at the cheapest Y fare and then fork out some extra dollars for the inconvenience and the failure to meet the passenger's expectations.

Isn't this the case in the USA and Europe? If you oversell a cabin then you need to compensate people for the downgrade not to try and profit from overselling which is essentially what they are doing.

 

[opusman]

Isn't this the case in the USA and Europe? If you oversell a cabin then you need to compensate people for the downgrade not to try and profit from overselling which is essentially what they are doing.

Yes it's a gamble for the airline, they roll the dice by over-booking and if all pax actually turn up it's the airline that loses. Not so in Australia, the dice are loaded very heavily in favour of the airlines.

 

[JohnK]

The question is by what means do you prove that the cheapest available economy fare at the time was $89.00? Screenshot with time and date stamp? It seems as though even if you could prove this the airlines own rules say the economy fare used for comparison purposes will be the full economy fare.

Aren't webpages archived somewhere? I am sure the airline would know how much the airfares were on sale during any particular week.

Using full economy airfare to compensate a cheap business class sale is wrong. It is quite possible that full economy airfare is more expensive than the cheapest business class paid so if downgraded the airline has every right to ask you for additional money to cover the full economy airfare?

As mentioned I do not understand how airlines in Australia get away with this policy.

If you are going to use full economy airfare for comparisons then it would be fair to compare this to the full business class airfare and pay appropriate compensation.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Aren't webpages archived somewhere? I am sure the airline would know how much the airfares were on sale during any particular week.

Using full economy airfare to compensate a cheap business class sale is wrong. It is quite possible that full economy airfare is more expensive than the cheapest business class paid so if downgraded the airline has every right to ask you for additional money to cover the full economy airfare?

As mentioned I do not understand how airlines in Australia get away with this policy.

If you are going to use full economy airfare for comparisons then it would be fair to compare this to the full business class airfare and pay appropriate compensation.

Another business idea right there! Airlines would hate it. There are similar trackers for flight loads (ex ID onloads) and is used as data intelligence by airlines to know what their competition is up to.
For example Qantas could be using this to see CX has 90%+ load factors AU->HKG on a near daily basis - and strategies can be put into place to mitigate more 'lost' traffic.

I think there's powerful niche opportunities for travel start-ups to cash in on empowering travellers with this type of data

 

[Flying mermaid]

I have been thinking (brooding) about this. Basically Qantas used to be our national carrier and it was a nicer, gentler time where if they stuffed you up, they apologised and did something to make up for it.

Now it is a listed company with a very expensive CEO and a duty to its shareholders to maximise profit. It can't treat passengers too badly, or they will jump ship, although the FF program pretty much keeps people locked in even when they aren't all that happy. Compensating people for all the things that go wrong is too expensive. Running a help line that gets answered quickly for all is too expensive. FF programs need to be watered down, now that the industry has recovered from the GFC, so that profit is maintained. Training of staff seems to be a bit haphazard in the fringe things (lounge access etc), although I am sure it is good in safety areas. Training is expensive. I suspect that people who actually pay for First are not going anywhere near filling the cabins, so money needs to be shaved off meals etc, which is why the menu is pretty close to a J menu. You see where I am going.

I actually think our expectations are too high and Qantas is never going to meet them, because they will put profit maintenance before customer satisfaction. If consumer affairs steps in and creates a compulsory compensation scheme for downgrades and offloads that will be different but it won't ever come from Qantas.

It is not a bad airline, but too many things go wrong (Mermaid Jinx at work). In a few years time I might have a better feel for where it sits with other airlines. My gut feel is better than a lot, but not as good as some.

 

[njba]

I actually think our expectations are too high and Qantas is never going to meet them, because they will put profit maintenance before customer satisfaction. If consumer affairs steps in and creates a compulsory compensation scheme for downgrades and offloads that will be different but it won't ever come from Qantas.

I think our expectations are reasonable, but I agree with your substantive point: unless there's a big stick (a la EU 261/04), pax will continue to be treated as self moving freight in these situations (rather than valuable consumers who need to be treated with at least certain respect).