ANZ have lost it - don't want loyalty, cancelling card!!

[oz_mark]

I don't know the ANZ system or what securemail is, but it is possible that it could be digitally signed

Actually, rereading the message it does seem that you can close the account by speaking with customer service, which gets around the written authority issue. I guess its just the way ANZ works.

 

[opusman]

I don't know the ANZ system or what securemail is

Not really sure why you're commenting on the thread then

 

[Dave Noble]

Not really sure why you're commenting on the thread then

Not knowing the ANZ computer system nor how "securemail" messages are defined hardly affects validity of commenting on thread but clarified that it was a suggestion on how they may class "securemail" messages as being signed

 

[opusman]

Since a) the OP's original point was about his account being closed as a result of a securemail message, b) my post was to show that ANZ officially won't close an account as a result of a securemail message, and c) by your own admission you don't even know what securemail is, d) I still don't know why you're commenting on the thread. Unless it's just to get your post count up.

 

[medhead]

Since a) the OP's original point was about his account being closed as a result of a securemail message, b) my post was to show that ANZ officially won't close an account as a result of a securemail message, and c) by your own admission you don't even know what securemail is, d) I still don't know why you're commenting on the thread. Unless it's just to get your post count up.

I think it was pretty clear that Dave was raising the possibility that securemail is digitally signed, which is a good point. But the response you recieved would suggest that it isn't digitally signed.

I am also confused about how you draw the conclusion that the OP asked for the account to be closed by secure mail.

So I wrote them a secure mail asking them to refund my fees as I was not happy about it, they wouldn't do it. I said I was going to cancel my card as a result.

This bit outlines 3 actions and only the first is explicitly stated to be a securemail. It is probably safe to assume that the following 2 actions were also by securemail, but it is still possible that they were by phone.

 

[Dave Noble]

Since a) the OP's original point was about his account being closed as a result of a securemail message, b) my post was to show that ANZ officially won't close an account as a result of a securemail message, and c) by your own admission you don't even know what securemail is, d) I still don't know why you're commenting on the thread. Unless it's just to get your post count up.

I don't see how not knowing the back end technicalities of the ANZ computer system makes commenting on a thread invalid; I suspect that there may be zero posters here who know exactly how a securemail message gets processed through the systems

Given that securemail requires authenticating to the bank before being able to send the message, I would not be surprised if it is treated as digitally signed and so can be treated by the bank like a proper letter with a signature

 

[Dave Noble]

I think it was pretty clear that Dave was raising the possibility that securemail is digitally signed, which is a good point. But the response you recieved would suggest that it isn't digitally signed.

I am also confused about how you draw the conclusion that the OP asked for the account to be closed by secure mail.

Indeed.

I presumed that the OP must have spoken on the phone to them when saying he was closing the account; put in writing would seem hard to complain if the account got closed in that case

 

[Deleted member 18152]

I was at my local branch talking renewal options and got word for word;

"Dont delude yourself, the average Australian spends $80k-$100k a year on their credit cards."

 

[opusman]

I am also confused about how you draw the conclusion that the OP asked for the account to be closed by secure mail.

Err.. have you actually read the OP's message? Either way, I suggest you try reading it again, and then read mine, and then try to understand my exasperation at the irrelevant smugness of Dave's reply to the message I posted which really, and truely, was just intended for the interest of the OP.

Anyway, thread boring now, bye bye.

 

[possum FF]

Hey buddy, I agree with you comments re ANZ general arrogance and gouging, but you did ask to cancel ......

I complained about ANZ charging for currency conversion fees on PayPal when PayPal specifically charges in AUD on a frequent flyer platinum card ($300 a year)

ANZ have a policy now to charge you the fee on most merchants even when they do AUD.

The exceptions are:
* Tiger Airways
* Carnival Australia
* Expedia
* Hotel.com.au
* Weight Watchers
* Pacific Dawn


Hey buddy, I agree with your comments about ANZ general arrogance, but you did cancel .........

So I wrote them a secure mail asking them to refund my fees as I was not happy about it, they wouldn't do it. I said I was going to cancel my card as a result.

I'm at the shops a few days later, trying to pay for goods. They don't take AMEX. So I bring out my Plat Visa. Declined with PIN. They said my PIN was wrong, so I tried signing. Declined.

After holding up the queue and waiting for someone at ANZ, they said my card was cancelled as requested by me.

The next day I had to go into a branch, and the manager helped me out and understood me, and got it reinstated. He apologised and said someone must have been sleepy or wanted to go home and just canned the card.

Later I got a phone call from the supervisor of card retention in Melbourne.


I was told that

• You specifically asked to cancel the card
• You threatened us by playing a game, and we don't play games
• You have had the fee reversed once before (42c !!! )

As general customer service goes, this guy wouldn't let me say anything. Everytime I spoke, he butted in and said what he wanted. Basically he said ANZ does not want my loyalty and will not be refunding anything further on this card. I said I did not ask for the card to be cancelled, it was in plain english, he said "Well that is your perogative". :evil:

Further to that, he said I was on a promotion for half price annual fee, and that is more than enough. (However this was set on the system way before this dispute happened).

I said I wanted to complain, he gave me the details and assured me that ANZ stands by what he told me and that I would be wasting my time.

I've been with ANZ for 11 years.

Someone has lost it!!!

With all their current changes to frequent flyer and things, I hope ANZ loses lots of business.

I will be taking 3 credit cards, a mortgage and other banking products away from them due to this idiot!

:evil:

 

[medhead]

Err.. have you actually read the OP's message? Either way, I suggest you try reading it again, and then read mine, and then try to understand my exasperation at the irrelevant smugness of Dave's reply to the message I posted which really, and truely, was just intended for the interest of the OP.

Anyway, thread boring now, bye bye.

And I'm really exasperated by the smugness of your "did you actually read the OP".

Did you actually read the bit in my post where I quoted the OP? Did you actually read the bit that I quoted. Did you actually comprehend the bit that I quoted

So I wrote them a secure mail asking them to refund my fees as I was not happy about it, they wouldn't do it. I said I was going to cancel my card as a result.

3 steps:

1. The OP wrote a securemail asking for a refund
2. ANZ refused
3. OP said they were going to cancel the card.

The only mention of using securemail is in relation to step 1. There is nothing that says steps 2 and 3 happened by securemail. You can only get that by making an assumption.

I suggest you re-read the OP, re-read my post and then try to provide an non-smug response that will help me to understand the assumptions that are the basis of your reply.

I mean I'm just trying to understand your reasoning here no need to be a %#*^& about it.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

In a nutshell it seems to me that ANZ breached their own rules about having to cancel a card in writing by doing it over the phone without the express permission of the cardholder.

Even if it was a lost in translation scenario involving a call centre overseas with the OP simply threatening to cancel card & call centre actually doing it they (ANZ) still should have insisted it be done in writing otherwise anyone could cancel someone elses card.

There are people (eg vindictive ex-spouses etc) who would know the answers to someones security questions if the bank was trying to 'verify' the person they were speaking to so not foolproof.

 

[greenfrog86]

In a nutshell it seems to me that ANZ breached their own rules about having to cancel a card in writing by doing it over the phone without the express permission of the cardholder.

Even if it was a lost in translation scenario involving a call centre overseas with the OP simply threatening to cancel card & call centre actually doing it they (ANZ) still should have insisted it be done in writing otherwise anyone could cancel someone elses card.

There are people (eg vindictive ex-spouses etc) who would know the answers to someones security questions if the bank was trying to 'verify' the person they were speaking to so not foolproof.

You can cancel a card over the phone - this is permissable and is the most common method of closing an account.It is reasonable to expect that it be done in this manner given that the operator is a Card specialist, whereas those processing securemail may be generalists or mostly responding to simple requests such as address updates (and would forward other requests to specialist teams).Ozbeachbabe - customer verification over the phone is considered a secure method of transacting with a bank. Just imagine the customer complaints if every interaction with a bank had to be in writing with a signature that had to be physically checked for each request...This whole thread appears to have become a slanging match amongst members - is there much point continuing it?I would say that the OP has had their vent, received some advice on how to interact with ANZ to get a resolution and some members have learned a thing or two about being clear with their requests and following them up if they dont appear to have been actioned correctly.Isn't that the point of these forums anyway???

 

[medhead]

You can cancel a card over the phone - this is permissable and is the most common method of closing an account.It is reasonable to expect that it be done in this manner given that the operator is a Card specialist, whereas those processing securemail may be generalists or mostly responding to simple requests such as address updates (and would forward other requests to specialist teams).Ozbeachbabe - customer verification over the phone is considered a secure method of transacting with a bank. Just imagine the customer complaints if every interaction with a bank had to be in writing with a signature that had to be physically checked for each request...This whole thread appears to have become a slanging match amongst members - is there much point continuing it?I would say that the OP has had their vent, received some advice on how to interact with ANZ to get a resolution and some members have learned a thing or two about being clear with their requests and following them up if they dont appear to have been actioned correctly.Isn't that the point of these forums anyway???

I don't see a slanging match here at all. I see a group of people trying to understand a situation and offer useful advice. I also think that most people replying here are well practised at issuing clear instuctions. Despite my small amount of uncertainty on the point, i do think on balance that it is likely that the OP make the comment about closing the account via secure mail. It has been clearly shown that that is against the ANZ rules to then close the account. I'm not sure how clear instructions would have any bearing on a situation where a CSR ignores the rules and does an action that should not be allowed to happen. I don't know how following up has any bearing either as ANZ as the OP has no idea that ANZ have gone ahead and closed the account without a valid request. Are we supposed to second guess that a CSR might just do something random and then follow up on it?

Besides I still wish to share my experience when I close my ANZ CC and to see if they value my custom any more than the OP's business.

 

[Zippy7]

I was at my local branch talking renewal options and got word for word;

"Dont delude yourself, the average Australian spends $80k-$100k a year on their credit cards."

Sorry, but the person who told you that must have been talking out of their backside. I cannot accept that at all.

Given that the average Australian wage earner does not earn that much in a year PRE-TAX, there is no way that they could spend that much on a card using post tax money.

Perhaps if they referred to small businesses, you might get a different picture, but that's a different category of customer.

 

[markis10]

Sorry, but the person who told you that must have been talking out of their backside. I cannot accept that at all.

Given that the average Australian wage earner does not earn that much in a year PRE-TAX, there is no way that they could spend that much on a card using post tax money.

Perhaps if they referred to small businesses, you might get a different picture, but that's a different category of customer.

Your logic is a tad flawed, since when do Australians limit their spend to their income :mrgreen:.

In December we hit $22B on credit cards for the month, thats $1000 for every member of the population in Australia (give or take the odd million people) regardless of their age etc

There are 14M credit card accounts in Australia, with 25% of the population unable to legally hold a card owing to age, there is around 5M card holders with other factors taken into account such as eligibility, so that $1000 per head of population becomes $4400 per month, or $52800 per year.

Using those figures we are not that far away from the $80000 a year and higher than the mean income. I would not be surprised to see the mean income of a credit card holder closer to $80K anyway, and a lot of card holders use their cards for work expenses which have no relation to their personal income while others funnel their business expenses through it.

 

[Dave Noble]

Sorry, but the person who told you that must have been talking out of their backside. I cannot accept that at all.

Given that the average Australian wage earner does not earn that much in a year PRE-TAX, there is no way that they could spend that much on a card using post tax money.

Remember average is not median or mode. I doubt that the median annual spending would be anywhere near that, especially if considering those that don't use credit cards in this. There may be some v high spenders which distort the average. I doubt the accuracy of the statement too though about average spending

Dave

 

[Will]

Remember average is not median or mode. I doubt that the median annual spending would be anywhere near that, especially if considering those that don't use credit cards in this. There may be some v high spenders which distort the average. I doubt the accuracy of the statement too though about average spending

Dave

Agreed. What the bank manager probably meant that was that of the credit card accounts he saw, most of them were in the vicinity of 70-80k/year. Which is very poorly correlated with what an 'average australian' spends on credit card - by any of the 3 definitions for 'average'.

And markis10, your sums simply indicate (even if we wholly accept the massive assumptions in the calculation, which I won't describe as they are obvious) that of people who have a credit card, mean spending is $52800. The difference between saying that and, and saying 'the average Australian spends $70,000' or whatever should be pretty clear.

 

[markis10]

And markis10, your sums simply indicate (even if we wholly accept the massive assumptions in the calculation, which I won't describe as they are obvious) that of people who have a credit card, mean spending is $52800. The difference between saying that and, and saying 'the average Australian spends $70,000' or whatever should be pretty clear.

There were no assumptions when it came to the figures so please state what you see as an assumption (they are not obvious) so that I can correct the perception, data was based on RBA figures which are readily available as well as the latest census data, I think its safe to say "the average card holder spends $53K a year" based on Dec spend data, Jan 2010 data for the number of accounts and 2006 census data for the # cardholders as a % of population.

Its entirely possible a bank would see its average card holder spend 80K, its frightening to think that every member of the population in Australia in December spent $1000 on a credit card given how many dont have credit cards.

 

[Will]

The assumptions are:
- that spending in December is only 1/12 of yearly spending
- that the accounts are all personal accounts, and that the number of accounts are spread evenly over the number of people who are eligible to hold one.
- That only 1/3rd of persons eligible by age hold accounts. Where is your data that only 5 million individuals hold cards? The RBA doesn't have the abililty to collect that kind of data AFAIK - they only have aggregate account statistics without unique identifying features - and it's certainly not in the census.


And ultimately, saying 'the average card spend is' is different to 'the average card-holder spends x' which is *completely* different to saying 'the average Australian spends x on credit cards'.