Air India B787 crash Ahmedabad

[mjt57]

Mentour Pilot and another pilot (both B737 guys) had a chat about this last night on the Tubes. They set up a Flight Sim and focused on how the fuel control switches operate and what it takes to operate them.

Years ago when I got a B737 sim session for Father's Day I recall them being stiff to operate and required a bit of effort to operate each one in turn. So, if they were operated, maybe, as JB suggested, it was an attempt to restart the engines, or at least, one of them.

 

[RSD]

Mentour Pilot and another pilot (both B737 guys) had a chat about this last night on the Tubes. They set up a Flight Sim and focused on how the fuel control switches operate and what it takes to operate them.

Years ago when I got a B737 sim session for Father's Day I recall them being stiff to operate and required a bit of effort to operate each one in turn. So, if they were operated, maybe, as JB suggested, it was an attempt to restart the engines, or at least, one of them.

I'm in "the fuel control switches were operated to try to relight the engines" camp

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 2:48 PM

The interesting thing now will be to see if they publish/make public this initial +30 days report.

 

[oz_mark]

I'm in "the fuel control switches were operated to try to relight the engines" camp

It's a hypothetical scenario that seems to fit in with everything we know about the crash. I'm not sure in a dual failure you'd have many options, especially if there is no handy river nearby.

 

[RSD]

It's a hypothetical scenario that seems to fit in with everything we know about the crash. I'm not sure in a dual failure you'd have many options, especially if there is no handy river nearby.

Dual failure at 400 feet just after take off - I doubt you would need the fingers on the other hand to count the options. They were obviously trying to work through it as they didn't just resort to trying the impossible turn or anything else that had absolutely no chance of working.

 

[jenib]

This fellow is ''dramatic'' but he has published a retraction on his previous video (which I didn't bother to watch) about the fuel control switches. He has found an apparent page of the duel engine failure procedure for the 787 Dreamliner, which instruct pilots to cutoff then run the switches in that circumstance. It takes until about the 7 minute mark of the video to get to the point.

 

[Rabs97]

This fellow is ''dramatic'' but he has published a retraction on his previous video (which I didn't bother to watch) about the fuel control switches. He has found an apparent page of the duel engine failure procedure for the 787 Dreamliner, which instruct pilots to cutoff then run the switches in that circumstance. It takes until about the 7 minute mark of the video to get to the point.

I really don’t have time for someone who couldn’t be bothered to find the correct QRH page in a rush to be the first to upload content.

I will post this video however, as it feature someone most would probably recognise, former NTSB senior investigator Greg Feith of Air Crash Investigation fame.

They discuss the accident investigation on Greg’s podcast with two other investigators, and let’s just say they don’t have much faith in the Indian Air Accident Board given some of the things that have happened post crash:

 

[jenib]

I really don’t have time for someone who couldn’t be bothered to find the correct QRH page in a rush to be the first to upload content.

I will post this video however, as it feature someone most would probably recognise, former NTSB senior investigator Greg Feith of Air Crash Investigation fame.

They discuss the accident investigation on Greg’s podcast with two other investigators, and let’s just say they don’t have much faith in the Indian Air Accident Board given some of the things that have happened post crash:

So is the page in his retraction video incorrect? Thanks

 

[Quickstatus]

The fact that they have the data showing the cycling of the fuel control switches is a good sign as that shows that the FDR was still recording after the engines shut down

Have you seen the report?

 

[jb747]

This fellow is ''dramatic'' but he has published a retraction on his previous video (which I didn't bother to watch) about the fuel control switches.

Read his bio on YT. He’s simply noisy SLF.

 

[markis10]

Prelim report is now published

https://aaib.gov.in/What's%20New%20Assets/Preliminary%20Report%20VT-ANB.pdf

Fuel switches went to cutoff one after the other, the crew took 10 seconds to move the first back to run followed shortly by the second one. It’s mentioned one crew member asked the other why he cutoff the fuel, which they denied, unfortunately the conversation is not time stamped in terms of when the problem was identified.

 

[RB001]

Breaking: Preliminary report on deadly Air India crash reveals engine fuel switch changes

A preliminary report on the fatal Air India crash that killed 260 people in Ahmedabad last month says the plane engines' fuel switches had been shifted from run to cut-off within seconds of each other.

www.abc.net.au

 

[jb747]

It gets weirder.

 

[Saab34]

I guess the discussion now moves to ‘why did the switches move’

JB, if someone was to move the switches, even with PICs attention well focused on the climb, surely one would still pickup someone next to them moving the switches? No doubt even the discreet sound of them moving would be unique that would raise ears.

 

[tgh]

A good old fashioned (multi) murder mystery unfolds.. whodunnit ?????

addendum…...…and why

 

[jb747]

I guess the discussion now moves to ‘why did the switches move’

I’m sure they’re looking, but I’d be interested in knowing more about whatever wiring is under the switches. Is there a circuit board that they activate, in which case a board fault could be taken as a switch throw?

JB, if someone was to move the switches, even with PICs attention well focused on the climb, surely one would still pickup someone next to them moving the switches? No doubt even the discreet sound of them moving would be unique that would raise ears.

Maybe. I think you’d see the hand movement, but perhaps not.

The reported conversation is strange as well.

A pilot issue is something that will be leapt upon with relief from some quarters, but as we saw with MCAS, issues can lie deeper below the obvious cause. In the interim, I think I’ll keep clear of both 787s and Air India.

 

[Saab34]

I assume an alert will pop up if the switches in a Boeing are move to cutoff?

Interesting it takes 4 seconds to move both fuel switches from CUTOFF to RUN but less than 1 second to move both the other way. Something still seems off here. I’m tending to side with JB and something underneath.

 

[jb747]

I assume an alert will pop up if the switches in a Boeing are move to cutoff?

Not a message about the switch, but numerous messages about engine shutdown, hydraulic, electric generator, etc fail. When you board an aircraft before flight, the EICAS is full of warnings, and you’d be seeing many of those.

 

[offshore171]

Something still seems off here. I’m tending to side with JB and something underneath.

Has that ever occurred before in the 14 years the 787 has been operating? If not, why now?

That would be a good question.

 

[markis10]

Interesting it takes 4 seconds to move both fuel switches from CUTOFF to RUN but less than 1 second to move both the other way.

That maybe because the APU was being started, dual starts are possible on a 787 but may only possible if the APU is running.

 

[jb747]

Has that ever occurred before in the 14 years the 787 has been operating? If not, why now?

That would be a good question.

When I was flying the 767, back around the mid ‘90s I found a repeatable bug in the FMC programming, that would allow the aircraft to descend through the MCP selected altitude. At that time it had been in service for around 10 years, and that sort of FMC had been in use across multiple types, so thousands in daily service. Things can lie hidden until the right factors all line up. So, whilst that probably isn’t the case here, the absence of a previous event does not rule out something happening in the future. And again, the classic is the oxygen tank failure on QF30. Never happened before in aviation history, and yet, it still did.