2.5M+ passengers delayed landing at BNE over the last year

[Mal]

More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane Airp

Interesting to observe that the multi storey car parks were built at a phenomenal speed as well.

They had been doing ground prep for ages before actually building from memory...

I don't doubt the bac that the ground prep work for second runway will take time due to the sand, reclamation and mangroves etc. What I do doubt in their story is that they claim there is no way to speed things up. I find that hard to believe.

 

[iRobbo]

Re: More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane

Interesting that Gatwick's site (Gatwick Facts and Figures) says San Diego is the world's second busiest single runway airport. Out of date perhaps?

No, Brisbane is a 2 runway airport, it's just that you couldn't use one of them. Hence why I said 'single runway operation'. There are a number of reasons Brisbane can't handle as much traffic as Gatwick, UK NATS was over here looking at runway demand capacity at a number of Australian airports and made several recommendations.

14/32 returned operationally on Thursday.

 

[lukenet]

Re: More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane

I did read that car parking revenue equaled or exceeded all other revenue generated from all other Airport operations..

I was not surprised, as parking costs can often exceed what I pay for a discount economy flight.

The Flight delays are shocking. the worst bit is, it is not going to be a quick fix.. Years away.. It is having a negative effect on Brisbane...

 

[anat0l]

Re: More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane

It is having a negative effect on Brisbane...

Ironically, I don't think it really is.

People claim it costs business, but to be honest, I think most people view that as a lost opportunity cost rather than an actual loss of business. Whilst it's feasible to debate the amount of lost opportunity due to a lacklustre airport, it's always only speculative.

The business is here in Brisbane (mostly resources and the like) - that's not going away so people will get the best they can out of the airport. They're not likely to consider whole other alternative cities; not that there are many of them. As for tourism that's a mixed bag, but since when did tourism and Brisbane make such a good couple? (*cough* never *cough* launchpad *cough* *cough*)

The airport just ends up being one of those things that we like to complain about, but is it actually detrimental on Brisbane? No more than the curfew in Sydney is detrimental to said city.

 

[markis10]

Re: More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane

Car parks dont need structure to handle individual weights of 400T, runways do, they also need funding, KLIA2 has taken three years including a new runway, no reason why BNE cannot do the same.

 

[jetlagger]

Re: More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane

Ironically, I don't think it really is.

People claim it costs business, but to be honest, I think most people view that as a lost opportunity cost rather than an actual loss of business. Whilst it's feasible to debate the amount of lost opportunity due to a lacklustre airport, it's always only speculative.

The business is here in Brisbane (mostly resources and the like) - that's not going away so people will get the best they can out of the airport. They're not likely to consider whole other alternative cities; not that there are many of them. As for tourism that's a mixed bag, but since when did tourism and Brisbane make such a good couple? (*cough* never *cough* launchpad *cough* *cough*)

The airport just ends up being one of those things that we like to complain about, but is it actually detrimental on Brisbane? No more than the curfew in Sydney is detrimental to said city.

It costs businesses..

As far back as 10 years ago..IIRC
Research & a feasibility study was compiled.
Brisbane Airport (Dom & Int) combined was achieving a min. 20% growth p.a. in passenger numbers.
Since that time, all that has realistically been achieved is an extension of the existing International terminal, reconfigured roads & 3 rather large capacity multistorey car parks & an ever expanding retail & services outlets.
There has been very little infrastructure upgrades (albeit cosmetic) on the domestic terminal since it was opened in 1988.
Apart from the apparent runway shortage issue..
There certainly was/is a very lacking due thought for the ever present growth in passenger number & the basic reliant infrastructure serving the passengers, much the similar pattern to the remainder of Queensland's ageing transport networks.
A PR spin & band aid approach does not work, more simplistic foresight planning & timely implementation is more important.
The delays are still costing me & business meetings in dollar figures by the minutes for parking & irate clients that keep questioning 'What's with the delays.. It's not exactly Gatwick or JFK"
Just get it together BAC.. You have the space, growth figures, revenue streams, approval, & well financed capabilities..
What will be the next excuse?

 

[eastwest101]

Re: More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane

Correct - BAC actually has a revenue stream that relies on delays - its called paid parking. Unless the airlines could all band together and threaten to leave, or assist someone-else to put a business case to construct a new airport. With planning laws and the amout of real estate required then they are pretty much hostage to whatever BAC want to do. If I were the owner of OOL and MCY airports I would be buying all the land I can lay my hands on and starting putting together an alternative.

Its always fun when a publicly funded and constructed monopoly infrastructure gets privatized....

I haven't had a flight through BNE in the last 6 months that wasn't delayed by 15mins to 1hour typically.

 

[anat0l]

Re: More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane

It costs businesses..

...

The delays are still costing me & business meetings in dollar figures by the minutes for parking & irate clients that keep questioning 'What's with the delays.. It's not exactly Gatwick or JFK"

I suppose my argument was more from what the other spin out there purports, which is usually in terms of lost potential rather than quoting real losses like yours. This latter type IMO is much more important and holds more water than a 'potential' which is gain or loss, in as so far as it will push a business case for "getting the skates on" more than one of potential output. (Potentials can always be inflated - look at our recent toll roads...)

Without anyone actually pushing that they are actively losing business rather than just business potential, the message will never get to the governments and further to that, the BAC.

Unless the airlines could all band together and threaten to leave, or assist someone-else to put a business case to construct a new airport. With planning laws and the amout of real estate required then they are pretty much hostage to whatever BAC want to do. If I were the owner of OOL and MCY airports I would be buying all the land I can lay my hands on and starting putting together an alternative.

Ironically, the airlines banding together and supporting another airport as an alternative...... that is actually what BAC want in a way - all the airlines giving them a bit so they can "pay" for this new runway. Going away from BAC but throwing their money there would only be a symbolic move, not necessarily a practical one.

The fact is that BAC should be able to get this going without the airlines' help. That is, after all, what they are put in the position to do. We could always blame the government for privatising the airport in the first place, but we know that achieves about as much as lipstick on a pig.

Maybe the airlines should invest their money in some cheap labour and steroi_s. And maybe an accelerated matter compactor, if one so existed. That swamp around BNE is really the limiting factor now in getting that runway up.

I haven't had a flight through BNE in the last 6 months that wasn't delayed by 15mins to 1hour typically.

Ironically, my last flights (last week), though not really during peak times (i.e. it was a Tuesday), were on time. Outbound left a little early; the inbound was not held up and no slowing or holding pattern required. And JohnK was even on our flights

Must've got lucky.

 

[eastwest101]

Re: More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane

That swamp around BNE is really the limiting factor now in getting that runway up.

Correct there in pointing out that there are different limitations stopping a parallel 2nd runway.

Financial - as others have alluded to, its BAC's job to ensure financing - thats simply part of financing and expanding/maintaining their asset. They already have a monopoly, a revenue stream, the ability to borrow and some existing customers. If they want their customers (the airlines) to fund BAC's business model then don't be surprised if the customers squeal or look to take their business elsewhere.

Legal - I won't claim to be an expert here but I imagine the legal ownership of all parts of the BNE airport is very complex with overlapping Federal Govt, State Govt and Private property ownership laws. Add onto that local councils and possible local residents and all the potential zoning issues and whom owns what on the airside vs land-side then its a miracle that any decisions are able to be made at all. Having said that - its not like it is a surprise to BAC that air-traffic will increase, as the saying goes - "your failure to plan (or act) does not constitute my emergency"

Physical - the amount of time required to fill and construct the actual runway and services, as others have pointed out - its a construction project like any other, and there would be an engineering minimum for time to build as far as practicalities go. But its not like no-one else in the world has ever built an additional runway. And you can bet that someone-else has built a better and less expensive example than the one proposed for BNE. And why wasn't the ground-work or early site prep done years ago?

All BAC have done is help de-bottleneck the landside of BNE airport (with the help of state and Fed govt funds) with their funds, and not acted elsewhere, so have created a bottleneck on the airside of the airport.

 

[elbarto]

Re: More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane

Physical - the amount of time required to fill and construct the actual runway and services, as others have pointed out - its a construction project like any other, and there would be an engineering minimum for time to build as far as practicalities go. But its not like no-one else in the world has ever built an additional runway. And you can bet that someone-else has built a better and less expensive example than the one proposed for BNE. And why wasn't the ground-work or early site prep done years ago?

Lets keep in mind the Japanese built an island and then an airport on it in 8 years. BAC probably can't fund the cost of building a second runway in a shorter time frame using faster building techniques.

 

[straitman]

Re: More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane

Lets keep in mind the Japanese built an island and then an airport on it in 8 years. BAC probably can't fund the cost of building a second runway in a shorter time frame using faster building techniques.

It should be possible though to progress several parts of the project concurrently though. Not everything needs to be on a straight timeline.

 

[jetlagger]

Re: More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane

Lets keep in mind the Japanese built an island and then an airport on it in 8 years. BAC probably can't fund the cost of building a second runway in a shorter time frame using faster building techniques.

I'm sure that BAC could fund the runway, though are unwilling to..
It appears they want the increased revenue stream, but are not obliging enough to cover the basic infrastructure capital costs to achieve it.
Very strange way of thinking IMO.

 

[anat0l]

Re: More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane

Correct there in pointing out that there are different limitations stopping a parallel 2nd runway.

I wouldn't say "stopping". It's quite possible to build the runway. Just not any (or much) faster than would be desirable.

As many have pointed out, you can definitely slow down the process.

Physical - the amount of time required to fill and construct the actual runway and services, as others have pointed out - its a construction project like any other, and there would be an engineering minimum for time to build as far as practicalities go. But its not like no-one else in the world has ever built an additional runway. And you can bet that someone-else has built a better and less expensive example than the one proposed for BNE. And why wasn't the ground-work or early site prep done years ago?

Unsure about like-for-like with BNE, unless you consider all those airports built on reclaimed land, e.g. Kansai. Not cheap efforts, though in many cases the applause goes to them for getting to job done. It still takes many years, though.

The groundwork and prep wasn't done years ago precisely for the reasons we are saying that we'd like to blame them now. The corollary of this is we can't really get that runway any faster. So all be it go and skin a few execs and hang them out on the public gallery to be named and shamed, but the runway is not going to come much faster than we'd like. That's what we're stuck with.

All BAC have done is help de-bottleneck the landside of BNE airport...

I'm not entirely sure whether this was effectively achieved. At best, did it actually achieve the degree of improvement relative to the investment. All we really got were a couple of brand spanking new parking lots, really. And one of the world's most impractically located and planned pick up areas ("kiss and ride").

Lets keep in mind the Japanese built an island and then an airport on it in 8 years. BAC probably can't fund the cost of building a second runway in a shorter time frame using faster building techniques.

Engineering as best as we can try to get it. I'm not sure if compaction can proceed faster than that. If there are any structural engineers on the forum, perhaps they can comment. All I know is soil consolidation is a slow process. Speeding up things doesn't necessarily lead to the same result, or even a better result (i.e. sometimes a worst or structurally fallible result).

It should be possible though to progress several parts of the project concurrently though. Not everything needs to be on a straight timeline.

No, but the critical path is set by the engineering aspects of having the ground ready for the runway. Which pretty much is the critical path of almost every engineering project that must establish some sort of foundation before building. Especially when the ground is not good soil, e.g. a swamp, or even reclaimed land.

 

[markis10]

Re: More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane

I'm not entirely sure whether this was effectively achieved. At best, did it actually achieve the degree of improvement relative to the investment. All we really got were a couple of brand spanking new parking lots, really. And one of the world's most impractically located and planned pick up areas ("kiss and ride").

Thats a bit simplified, the fact the drop off and pickup areas do not have traffic feeding them stopped by pedestrians crossing the road was probably the most significant change, sure its still the same area in terms of car capacity as before but traffic flows better.

 

[samh004]

Re: More than 2.5 million air passengers have experienced delays landing at Brisbane

I would say the traffic flow is much better, and while the new pickup area isn't conveniently located, it does give 30 mins free parking and is easy to do laps of every 30 minutes. I've used it before, a few times.

 

[Mal]

There has to be a civil engineer here who can comment about the landfill aspect of their plans.

Anyone want to to comment?

 

[JohnK]

Its always fun when a publicly funded and constructed monopoly infrastructure gets privatized....

Should never happen.

I haven't had a flight through BNE in the last 6 months that wasn't delayed by 15mins to 1hour typically.

I think the delays have been around a lot longer. Perhaps it is just me....

 

[jetlagger]

I think the delays have been around a lot longer. Perhaps it is just me....

Never seems to happen on my SQ departures & arrivals. They either pay a premium or BAC charges them more for on scheduled time departures & arrivals slots. I suspect the former & latter.