Delays and the limit to avoiding the cost involved.

[opusman]

Can't remember the last SYD flight I had that was on time...

 

[medhead]

It was probably just a case of they had no idea that it was going to be a missed connection, and had they had enough notice (eg through one PNR) they would have probably held the plane for you.

I guess I should have been more insistent. I did let them know while we were sitting on the ground in Canberra waiting to push back and for the storm to pass over. A good hour's notice.

 

[eastwest101]

Yes I agree medhead - I don't think it was unreasonable for you to make that connection, even with 2 seperate PNRs you did notify them and you did OLCI so obviously intended to take the flights and I presume you did mention you were HLO. And agree that even an automated sms system or a 2min phone call would have saved QF quite a lot of money in your situation. Seems symptomatic of an organization and staff that do not value the time of their customers or indeed the cost to their shareholders. You experience in SYD of seeing QF806 on the ground in SYD with no gate staff there/lights out and no attempt to page/call you could say more about the work ethic and lack of communication of QF ground staff more than anything.

On the one PNR I have had both VA and QF call me on a few tight connections and ask how far away from the boarding gate I was. Even though they knew I was still on the inbound aircraft but at the gate. In other tight connections I have not had this courtesy call, but have been paged so seems to be no rhyme or reason behind it, and I am only a silver on both so defianetly not a high status passenger.....

In my limited experience I have seen flights held for 5 or 10mins max awaiting incoming passengers, but this s usually because a lot of flights are running 5-10mins late anyway - due to weather/ATC/other pax no show and offloading baggage etc etc

No hard or fast rule but I would be very surprised if VA or QF held up any flight more than 5-10min for a "tight/delayed connecting passenger" unless ground staff had confirmation that the passenger was definately on the way....

 

[jpk]

What is the cost of getting someone to check QF806's arrival time, see that it's 10 minutes before scheduled departure and hold QF785 for a few minutes? Maybe even get someone to meet me from QF806

I wasn't having a go at you for booking separate PNRs (I do it all the time as well). Just pointing out that the system is automated to look for that type of misconnect. As you suggested, it would be nice if the system could go a step further and see if you were also booked on other non-related flights and check if they were delayed (I presume Altea doesn't do this yet, or if it does they need to pay more for the functionality), but given how hopeless QF is at IT I am not surprised if they don't do this.

I'm sure you know that you can ring them and "link" unrelated bookings (they just put notes in both bookings referring to each other) and that can help IF the gate staff bother to look for them.

Your other suggestion was someone checking incoming late flights and arranging for connecting flights to be held - well they would need to know you are connecting, so same problem as above - the tech needs to be there to do that. I've found during the day there is a team checking for misconnects for WPs and finding solutions in advance (when on same PNR), maybe they don't work back that late. It would be a good idea if they did, as last flights of the day is when this is important. Perhaps the 806 crew did try to notify someone, but there was no one around then to care? Maybe QF have run the sums on staffing that team at night and decided it's not worth it - cheaper to pay for the occasional hotel rather than pay someone to work late every night. There's been a few incidents lately where it seems there is no one in Domestic Ops late at night.

Finally there is the human factor - it's quite likely that the 806 crew simply forgot and did nothing about it. Or that the gate staff was told, but didn't care and decided to go home asap.

I think it should have been held for you, and probably would have if they had known how close you were.

 

[RooFlyer]

Think your feedback was a good idea. It might provoke someone into 'having a look at' this type of scenario, for QF's financial advantage. I guess for any airline waiting for X, Y or Z must be a daily dilemma, but I'm surprised they didn't in your case.

BTW do you know if the plane doors were closed, or still open? If shut then I think it may be much more difficult for them to accommodate you.

Interesting contrast to a recent experience of mine. For the first time ever, I cut arrival at the airport (HLO) too fine. My phone rang as I was going through HBA security, but I couldn't answer it. I arrived at the gate to hear that the gate attendant had just taken me off the flight as a no-show and 'closed' the flight - it was them calling me. After some furious typing into the system, and a call on the radio, they let me on. The plane doors were still open and the stairs were still at the aircraft.

 

[markis10]

BTW do you know if the plane doors were closed, or still open? If shut then I think it may be much more difficult for them to accommodate you.

Open or shut doors would not make one bit of difference if the flight has been closed off, at that stage the final paperwork is being done!

 

[RooFlyer]

Open or shut doors would not make one bit of difference if the flight has been closed off, at that stage the final paperwork is being done!

Hmmm... I thought the 'final paperwork' was delivered to the pilots. If the doors were closed, then I'd say the paperwork was done and dusted (except for extraordinary case)! If doors were still open, then there would be some hope (as I found out).

 

[Melburnian1]

medhead, it may have been that you had a much tighter schedule in terms of work than some of us, or that you were seeking to maximise time at work, socialise or that the direct flight was booked out or had expensive tickets as the sole ones available when you looked at it, but isn't there a direct QF flight that runs between CBR and ADL and departs CBR at 1755? It's only 35 minutes ahead of the timetabled departure time of your indirect CBR - SYDx - ADL route.

At times VA has a direct flight (VA581) departing CBR at 1850 and arriving ADL at 2005.

It's not good to plan tight connections at the end of the night.

While not all delays are airlines' fault, I agree with JohnK that for businessmen and others who travel at peak times (such as a Thursday or Friday night, or Monday morning) punctuality on major routes can be unreliable. One day it's fine, the next everything is late.

There was an interesting survey discussed in the media this week about what a low level of engagement QF staff have with their company (and management). It shows in a general lack of care to minimise these hotel type expenses.

Shareholders haven't had a dividend since 2009. The institutions must be slowly forming a view that management has to change.

Shareholders are at the bottom of the queue.

 

[medhead]

Had to log in on a real computer to do justice to my reply. Since when are there ads.

Seems symptomatic of an organization and staff that do not value the time of their customers or indeed the cost to their shareholders. You experience in SYD of seeing QF806 on the ground in SYD with no gate staff there/lights out and no attempt to page/call you could say more about the work ethic and lack of communication of QF ground staff more than anything.

In all honesty, I'm not bothered about my time in this case. Those who might have seen my Facebook post at the time would have noticed that I attribute 3 mistakes to myself on this. After a weekend and some thinking time it really occurred to me that there was a significant amount of wastage in not delaying the flight. sure it's small fry, but with reports of $500 million loses in the newspapers, I would have thought ever little bit would count.

Work ethic/communication, at least one post has hinted at lack of staff empowerment. I know that can be a massive turn off. Vast difference in my work ethic between past jobs where trust was lacking and the current job where my boss may not speak to me for months and he doesn't get bothered. It doesn't seem unreasonable that Qantas staff might feel indifferent to the company's interests.

The J lounge did say they were paging me when I fronted up there.

Think your feedback was a good idea. It might provoke someone into 'having a look at' this type of scenario, for QF's financial advantage. I guess for any airline waiting for X, Y or Z must be a daily dilemma, but I'm surprised they didn't in your case.

BTW do you know if the plane doors were closed, or still open? If shut then I think it may be much more difficult for them to accommodate you.

I think this really comes down to a lack of insistence on my part to the QF806 crew. I was a bit casual about it, expecting them to just act. (one of my 3 mistakes). Given this is the second flight I've missed in 4 years, I don't have much experience.

The doors were closed and the gate lounge was in darkness. I'm not sure if the tug was connected, glasses weren't on, but there was a guy standing around waiting next to the tug.

I have always assumed that the paperwork is done before they board pax, based on observation in ADL. The gate agent is almost always printing out something on old-school dot matrix printer paper before boarding starts. It looks very similar to the list that the crew have on board.

I wasn't having a go at you for booking separate PNRs (I do it all the time as well). Just pointing out that the system is automated to look for that type of misconnect. As you suggested, it would be nice if the system could go a step further and see if you were also booked on other non-related flights and check if they were delayed (I presume Altea doesn't do this yet, or if it does they need to pay more for the functionality), but given how hopeless QF is at IT I am not surprised if they don't do this.

I'm sure you know that you can ring them and "link" unrelated bookings (they just put notes in both bookings referring to each other) and that can help IF the gate staff bother to look for them.

Your other suggestion was someone checking incoming late flights and arranging for connecting flights to be held - well they would need to know you are connecting, so same problem as above - the tech needs to be there to do that. I've found during the day there is a team checking for misconnects for WPs and finding solutions in advance (when on same PNR), maybe they don't work back that late. It would be a good idea if they did, as last flights of the day is when this is important. Perhaps the 806 crew did try to notify someone, but there was no one around then to care? Maybe QF have run the sums on staffing that team at night and decided it's not worth it - cheaper to pay for the occasional hotel rather than pay someone to work late every night. There's been a few incidents lately where it seems there is no one in Domestic Ops late at night.

Finally there is the human factor - it's quite likely that the 806 crew simply forgot and did nothing about it. Or that the gate staff was told, but didn't care and decided to go home asap.

I think it should have been held for you, and probably would have if they had known how close you were.

I don't think I thought you were having a go. If anything I was reflecting my own mistakes in any comments, rather than being defensive. Sorry.

You're right about the IT. I always thought that it is something that I should prompt to happen rather than rely on a computer. Insistence on my part to motivate the QF806 crew. I didn't even think of the cost of extra staff staying back, well I kinda did. But I was thinking within the 10-15 minutes of staff time required to track QF806 and then collected me from the gate. What I forgot is that they need to be paid for at least 4 hours not just 15 minutes = significant cost.

I did know about linking, but completely forgot about such things for domestic flights - mistake 4.

 

[medhead]

medhead, it may have been that you had a much tighter schedule in terms of work than some of us, or that you were seeking to maximise time at work, socialise or that the direct flight was booked out or had expensive tickets as the sole ones available when you looked at it, but isn't there a direct QF flight that runs between CBR and ADL and departs CBR at 1755? It's only 35 minutes ahead of the timetabled departure time of your indirect CBR - SYDx - ADL route.

At times VA has a direct flight (VA581) departing CBR at 1850 and arriving ADL at 2005.

It's not good to plan tight connections at the end of the night.

While not all delays are airlines' fault, I agree with JohnK that for businessmen and others who travel at peak times (such as a Thursday or Friday night, or Monday morning) punctuality on major routes can be unreliable. One day it's fine, the next everything is late.

Fair question, detailed explanation of my thought process to follow.

The issue is that I fly ADL-SYD-ADL weekly. I book these flights months in advance as the dates and timings are know. I have 3 QF flight options that work for me. 2 weeks ago, I had to be in Canberra for the day, the difference between changing my SYD-ADL to CBR-ADL wasn't justified based on the price. The day's activities were from 9:15 to 17:00, So I went for QF806 scheduled to arrived in SYD at 19:25, connecting to a 20:10 departure.

The day finished at 16:45, a quick beer with the others, in a taxi by 17:20. The beer meant I missed the 17:30 QF departure, but I think that was line ball anyway. I made the decision not to rush the airport because, despite forecasts of storms the day was still beautiful and clear. The day was still and bright as I was boarding QF806. We sat there for a few minutes after door close, I looked out the window wondering about what was happening and it was dark and raining. Then the captain announce the lightening within 5 km of the airport. That is the point that I became stuffed. Seat belt sign off, about 30 minutes of storm and sitting there waiting. During this time I mentioned my connection to crew. It did not help that the aircraft at the gate next to us, that was not even staffed when I passed it to board, was pushed back before us after the storm passed.

Yes, 45 minutes was tight, but I thought reasonable. I still think that was the best option overall. There is also the situation that I was trying to contain costs for the people paying for my trip to ADL, basically my professional association that is not for profit.

edit: I mention staff engagement in my previous post. I also don't ask my mum about shareholder returns.

 

[eastwest101]

I understand about the CBR-ADL flights as well medhead - I have quite often seen the CBR-ADL fares much much higher than the CBR-SYD-ADL and the frequency and timing of CBR-ADL flights are not ideal for some people.

Your points about the lack of engagement with QF staff sort of follows my own observations as well. The culture of QF management would be congratulating themselves on only stranding one pax in transit via SYD to ADL because as you say - the ground staff knocked off on the dot and everyone high-fives eachother about how they contain wages and the fact that the company is out of pocket by $350 or so does not meet someones KPI, but hey - they saved themselves say $150-$200 of overtime wages. Or to put it more succinctly - "thats someones elses problem".


I would imagine that staff are not really encouraged or empowered to go extra mile in slightly unusual circumstances, and seeing as they are often described as being the major problem for QF and not an asset to QF I would hardly think that morale is that high at the moment anyway. When I do get good customer service at QF I usually attribute it to someone whom still or does have pride in their job, although I am sure that some parts of QF management try to beat any enthusiasm and/or lateral thinking out of them....

Big companies are very good at that old addage of "pinching the pennies and throwing away the pounds"

 

[mannej]

Isn't it the pilots call at the end of the day as to whether or not the plane waits or goes?
With all this talk of the ground crew, keeping in mind the weather involved, they may not have actually had a say if the pilot said no.
The system is much more complex than just one pax in it.

 

[Melburnian1]

It may be the pilot's call, but one could argue it's really ATC calling the shots.

 

[N860CR]

For a departure it has nothing to do with ATC. They're not interested until you call for a pushback and by then the doors closed, aerobridge disconnected and the planes leaving unless a major change occurs.

On the ground, the flight crew would have limited knowledge of the needs of a late running passenger. The gate staff make that call. They decide when to "close" the flight, load control print the documents and then they're handed to the crew.

Theoretically, an extra passenger could be added before the doors closed but it would involve printing a new load sheet and the ground staff won't do it. The crew aren't asked about this.

For interests sake... Was accommodation etc offered or did it have to be battled for? On separate PNRs it's unusual of Qantas to be so accommodating so I'd be curious to know if it was a status favour?

 

[medhead]

They asked if I was based in Sydney. Accommodation was offered when I said no Adelaide. I assume a status thing, but don't know for certain.

 

[N860CR]

Fair enough.

Good result in the end I guess.

The systems are unfortunately not setup to manage separate bookings well. The crew on a CBR-SYD are low on time as it is so organising a connection would have been low on the priority list. Probably could have been handled better by the staff on the ground at CBR but again, they're battling system limitations.

 

[mrpooky]

What is a discrete/discreet booking?

A discrete booking has been explained. A discreet booking, however, is a booking that one's spouse doesn't know about.

Sorry; I'm feeling a bit silly today.

mrpooky.