Delays and the limit to avoiding the cost involved.

[medhead]

This is feedback that I've just submitted to Qantas customer care. The situation seems to be one where Qantas should/could have avoided the cost of accomodating me for a night at late notice. Should I have been more pushy on the first flight about getting them to contact someone? Or should Qantas staff before more proactive in thinking about the big picture beyond just their current flight?

On Thursday 21 November I was flying on QF806 from CBR to SYD connecting to QF785 SYD to ADL. QF806 was delayed by a storm. I realise this is beyond your control. I ended up arriving at the departure gate for QF785 in SYD 2 minutes before scheduled departure to find the gate closed and all lights turned off but the aircraft still at the gate position. I did mention my connection to the crew on QF806.

While weather is beyond your control, there were a few things that could have been done in this situation to help me make my connection. The flight crew on QF806 could have contacted someone to inform them of the situation and let QF785 know that I would be there, just.

QF806 was on the ground in Sydney and I had my phone on after landing for about 10 minutes before scheduled departure of QF785. There were no phone calls during this time. As I was checked in for QF785 already it might have been useful to try calling me.

I don't really mind the delay and having to spend an extra night in Sydney. But this occurrence could have been avoided by proactive action by Qantas. At the end of the day the delay caused a significant cost for Qantas in hotels and taxi vouchers. That cost could have been avoided.

When I say significant cost, the hotel Qantas purchased is available to book tonight for $595, sure Qantas gets a discount. but $200 might be one guess at the cost for the hotel. They also provided $100 in taxi vouchers and $50 for meals. $350+ in total, which is significant compared to the cost of my fares.

What is the cost of getting someone to check QF806's arrival time, see that it's 10 minutes before scheduled departure and hold QF785 for a few minutes? Maybe even get someone to meet me from QF806 to make sure I go directly to jail and do not pass go.

As I said, I'm always happy to have a free 4 star hotel night and taxis and meals. But it seems wasteful of Qantas' resources.

 

[Mwenenzi]

Delaying flights has a roll on effect.
Delay just for you or the guy on the aircraft who landed 3 minutes after yours or the next guy or just for some federal pollies?

With a major disruption phoning passengers with a onwards connection to me is not practical. Many people would (should) have their phones turned off

 

[medhead]

Delaying flights has a roll on effect.
Delay just for you or the guy on the aircraft who landed 3 minutes after yours or the next guy or just for some federal pollies?

With a major disruption phoning passengers with a onwards connection to me is not practical. Many people would (should) have their phones turned off

True.

I now realise I left out some context. QF785 is the last flight SYD-ADL each night and the aircraft will spend the night in ADL. It's currently scheduled to depart at 20:10, and has previously been scheduled to depart at 20:40. The timing makes for a very specific scenario. Hence my feedback.

I guess my question is your thoughts about the limit to waiting for a passenger. As it turned out I could have been on the flight seated before scheduled departure, just. Was it worth $350 to qantas to get that aircraft gone early?

Phone calls. I don't know. The lounge front desk said they'd been paging me. They have called me a couple of times in Sydney in the past as I've been walking towards the gate at about 10 to 15 minutes before scheduled departure.

Anyway, just interested in views about what is reasonable to expect in this situation and in general.

 

[Hvr]

You mentoned you had your phone on. Any reason you couldn't have been proactive and called Qantas yourself?

Not ideal of course but just a thought.

I'm assuming you had HLO.

Also, was it one booking or were they discrete?

 

[medhead]

You mentoned you had your phone on. Any reason you couldn't have been proactive and called Qantas yourself?

Not ideal of course but just a thought.

I'm assuming you had HLO.

Also, was it one booking or were they discrete?

I didn't really want to tie up the phone line and didn't think 131211 would be able to provide much assistance.

Hlo is a very safe assumption.

Discrete bookings.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

What is a discrete/discreet booking?

Were you already checked in for QF785 ie in CBR did you tell them you were connecting in SYD from QF806 to QF785 so they'd link the flights and issue you with both boarding passes?

If they were separate pnrs & not linked for the purpose of through checkin, the staff departing QF785 SYD/ADL would be unaware of your inbound connection & would probably just assume you were a noshow pax when they closed the flight 15 minutes prior to departure.

Even though the a/c overnights in ADL it's possible the crew may be operating an early flight ex ADL which means that a delay to their inbound flight to ADL could cause their next departure ex ADL to be delayed due to the mandatory rest period required by CASA. Depending on the lenght of the initial delay, it could have a domino effect on the rest of the next days flying.

 

[medhead]

What is a discrete/discreet booking?

Were you already checked in for QF785 ie in CBR did you tell them you were connecting in SYD from QF806 to QF785 so they'd link the flights and issue you with both boarding passes?

If they were separate pnrs & not linked for the purpose of through checkin, the staff departing QF785 SYD/ADL would be unaware of your inbound connection & would probably just assume you were a noshow pax when they closed the flight 15 minutes prior to departure.

Even though the a/c overnights in ADL it's possible the crew may be operating an early flight ex ADL which means that a delay to their inbound flight to ADL could cause their next departure ex ADL to be delayed due to the mandatory rest period required by CASA. Depending on the lenght of the initial delay, it could have a domino effect on the rest of the next days flying.

A separate booking, separate pnr.

Checked in using olci.

My thought was more that QF806 staff would make qf785 aware of the situation.

I appreciate the operational issue for QF785 crew. Just wondering the margin of error on that front. Given that I did arrive at the gate practically exactly on scheduled departure, is there the ability to wait, if they knew my location, to save $350 on accommodation etc.?

I would hope they didn't decide I was a no show at 15 minutes before, as I could still have been in the boarding queue.

 

[markis10]

A couple of years ago I rang the plat desk after arriving in PER ex SIN on a day flight (sigh - great memories) because a group of us (5) had been waiting for the QF bus and it was very late to get us to domestic, the operator was able to talk to someone in control at the domestic end, held the flight and even sent someone to the kerb to escort us through security to make the flight, it was very effective, and they had no idea the 5 of us where waiting until I called.

 

[jpk]

I think the separate PNRs is the problem here, if it was one booking there would be more chance of them recognising the problem, checking & waiting.
To be honest I think you should be happy they put you up for the night on separate bookings, many carriers would not! QF are great in that regard.

 

[Mwenenzi]

Even though the a/c overnights in ADL it's possible the crew may be operating an early flight ex ADL which means that a delay to their inbound flight to ADL could cause their next departure ex ADL to be delayed due to the mandatory rest period required by CASA. Depending on the lenght of the initial delay, it could have a domino effect on the rest of the next days flying.

And even small thing like having to hold back (over time) ADL ground staff.
Even running 2 engines whilst waiting for you costs a lot: money converted into a lot of hot air doing nothing
If you were the only pax left behind $350 is just loose change in the over scheme of things.
We passengers do not have the complete background and costs/flow on of any decision

A separate booking, separate PNR.
Checked in using OLCI.
My thought was more that QF806 staff would make QF785 aware of the situation.

With a separate booking how would QF785 know you were on QF806. Crew on the aircraft are know nothing about forward independent reservations: not their job

 

[theloungedragon]

Having separate PNRs was no help to you at all. You would not have been flagged as a connecting passenger to air crew or ground staff. You have just been seen as a checked in no-show when the flight was closed off at -10 and subsequently off-loaded.
Once the flight is closed and the Passenger Information List is taken on board very rarely will a flight be re-opened for late runners. If there are known late connecting passengers then a decision would be made with many factors to be considered, including some already mentioned above. Other than that, the schedule is king. Qantas' OTP is one of their top priorities at the moment so the pressures on ground staff to stick to schedules is massive, perhaps even more important than the cost of putting you up for the night.

To answer your original question, maybe advising the flight crew of your connection during your first flight may have helped but would not have been a guarantee. Having accommodation and other expenses paid by Qantas after a storm delay is quite a luxury as many other airlines do not compensate for weather delays.

 

[medhead]

The question I have raised really does not have much to do with the separate PNRs. Certainly that would have made life easier. But you might notice that I'm asking about the idea of delaying to save the cost involved in accommodating someone. I even raised in my feedback the suggestion that the crew of qf806 could have contacted someone about the connection. The idea being that they know ill be there and then a 1 minute delay might save them some other costs. The question being how long etc. Well it's in the OP for all to read.

Otherwise, I'm well aware of how "lucky" I've been. But this really is about the question of potentially saving money of qantas and that is the suggestion I included in my feedback.

Perhaps those hung up on the 2 pnr thing might like to discuss my luck elsewhere. It's irrelevant to the question raised and I am well aware of the cause of this event. Thank you for your feedback.

And even small thing like having to hold back (over time) ADL ground staff.
Even running 2 engines whilst waiting for you costs a lot: money converted into a lot of hot air doing nothing
If you were the only pax left behind $350 is just loose change in the over scheme of things.
We passengers do not have the complete background and costs/flow on of any decision

We all know that they don't start running two engines until after they push back.

With a separate booking how would QF785 know you were on QF806. Crew on the aircraft are know nothing about forward independent reservations: not their job

Did you read the bit about telling the crew of QF806 about the connection? Did you read the bit about QF806 contacting someone to note my location?

 

[medhead]

Having separate PNRs was no help to you at all.

Well aware of the cause, thank you. Next time I have a last minute day trip to fit around an existing booking, I'll keep it in mind

To answer your original question, maybe advising the flight crew of your connection during your first flight may have helped but would not have been a guarantee. Having accommodation and other expenses paid by Qantas after a storm delay is quite a luxury as many other airlines do not compensate for weather delays.

Gets to my question a bit more. Given the pressures mentioned how long is reasonable to expect them to wait? Dead on scheduled departure? -3 minutes? +5minutes? Would I have had a different outcome if I was more insistent on QF806, in your educated opinion?

 

[JohnK]

Qantas' OTP is one of their top priorities at the moment so the pressures on ground staff to stick to schedules is massive, perhaps even more important than the cost of putting you up for the night.

They are not doing very well then. Are they? Especially on SYD-BNE and vv.

If have been on flights where everyone has boarded and waiting ~10-15 minutes for a single connecting passenger. Sometimes 2 passengers. Why? It would be best to head off and let those passengers fend for themselves.

And if someone on separate PNRs with a tight connection informs the crew on their flight that they have an onward connection then I would expect that crew to get word to crew of onward connection they have a connecting passenger on board.

But in my experience some airline staff have communication issues. On more than occasion. Is socialising time that important? They are paid to work not socialise.

 

[MH_fan]

In situations like these, I will inform the staff of a tight connection if the first flight is delayed. They have often rung ahead and held the next flight back if they know I'm not going to be too late, especially when I tell them I don't have checked luggage. This would be even more likely if that connecting flight is the last flight of the day.

 

[markis10]

They are not doing very well then. Are they? Especially on SYD-BNE and vv.

LOL, the stats would suggest otherwise, if your going to travel at peak times you have the reality of being delayed, it would be foolish to think your experience is representative of the mean.

Of the major domestic airlines, Qantas achieved the highest level of on time departures for October 2013 at 85.8 per cent, followed by Virgin Australia at 76.2 per cent, Jetstar at 71.3 per cent and Tigerair at 67.4 per cent. The regional airlines were led by Regional Express at 87.1 per cent, followed by Virgin Australia Regional Airlines at 85.1 per cent and QantasLink at 77.9 per cent

http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/files/BITRE_OTP_Report_October_2013.pdf

Thats about as good as it will get in an imperfect world.

 

[JohnK]

LOL, the stats would suggest otherwise, if your going to travel at peak times you have the reality of being delayed, it would be foolish to think your experience is representative of the mean.

Interesting that it lists SYD-BNE and vv as 80%+ on time for Qantas in October up from ~68% and 75% not that long ago. I would be happy with those figures but in my experience it is not even close with 2 of the past 3 flights delayed.

And I have no choice than to travel at peak times. I dont have the luxury of a company paying for my airfares, accommodation and travel time.

 

[medhead]

Interesting that it lists SYD-BNE and vv as 80%+ on time for Qantas in October up from ~68% and 75% not that long ago. I would be happy with those figures but in my experience it is not even close with 2 of the past 3 flights delayed.

And I have no choice than to travel at peak times. I dont have the luxury of a company paying for my airfares, accommodation and travel time.

Like my regular travel I imagine you're locked into a handful of suitable flights a week out of, what, 100 flights a week in each direction. That suggests you can take no more than 5% of available flights. It is entirely possible that those 5% of flights are delayed almost 100% of the time.

For example, I have a choice of 2 flights for ADL-SYD, both scheduled to depart at the same time. I suspect one of those 2 flights is delayed every Monday morning by upto 30 minutes due to SYD ATC. My personal on time performance ADL-SYD would be about 50% maximum. But the overall route will be a lot higher.

 

[JohnK]

My personal on time performance for both SYD-BNE and SYD-OOL would be 50% at best.

Over the past 6 years I have tried everything from Friday lunchtime to Friday night BNE-SYD flights to Sunday afternoon to Sunday night SYD-BNE flights. I have also travelled outside these days and it is no different.

There are a number of AFFers who can vouch for my record.

 

[harvyk]

I've certainly had last flights of the day held for me, probably the longest was a SYD-CBR after getting in on a PER-SYD. There they held QF807 by 15 minutes for two of us on the PER-SYD. But in that case it was on the same PNR, and I asked the FA about the connection to CBR prob about a good hour before landing so they had ample time to contact the ground and workout what they where going to do. The pilot on the PER-SYD flight also made an announcement over the PA letting pax know that QF807 was going to be held in SYD for connecting pax.

It was probably just a case of they had no idea that it was going to be a missed connection, and had they had enough notice (eg through one PNR) they would have probably held the plane for you.