Are some crew members unfit for duty?

[markis10]

Thanks medhead and anat01 for your discussion, which I have foillowed with interest. Thanks, too, to TonyHancock for his humour, which I appreciated.

Meggsy, you say, "I'm not sure about the USA but would be gobsmacked if the FAA did not have a similar program." Well, certainly, I too would be gobsmacked, and gobsmacked indeed I was when a Delta captain suggested to me that the US testing program was not comprehensive. And his advice would seem to explain to me why one still sees a 175kg pilot in the coughpit and an 87 year old flight attendant in the cabin. Despite what any of you say about prejudices, I would still maintain that there is a good prima facie case that such individuals are NOT fit for duty, and that if they wish to continue they should be required to demonstrate that they are indeed fit by passing a comprehensive test, designed with their particular possible weaknesses in mind and executed thoroughly and impartially.

Have any other AFF members come across crew members in USA or elsewhere who caused you to wonder about their fitness for duty, for whatever reason?

Roughly speaking the FAA and CASA follow the same rules, in the case of an airline pilot in the US:

Index of FAA Second Class Pilot Medical Standards

 

[Boris spatsky]

But airline pilots need a Class 1 - http://flightphysical.com/part61/61.23-Pilot-Med-Certification.htm

 

[JohnK]

Isn't there an age limit where people have to retire from the workforce?

I thought it was 70 years of age in Australia but I am not sure if the USA has the same rules in place.

 

[markis10]

But airline pilots need a Class 1 - CFR 61.3 Pilot Certification Requirements

Yes, the link I posted detailed what the tests where for a commercial pilot which are pretty comprehensive, as I said the FAA does not differ to much from local regs.

 

[RooFlyer]

Isn't there an age limit where people have to retire from the workforce?

I thought it was 70 years of age in Australia but I am not sure if the USA has the same rules in place.

No. Maybe for certain statutory positions ... ??federal court judges??, but not in general. I mean, who's going to tell me that I can't work for my own company at 70?

 

[DaveB]

I picked up my daughter returning last year on a DL flight and saw none of the crew were under 40 and doubt many, if any were under 50 with one of the pilots a dead ringer for the captain out of Up In The Air.
I feel for the western airlines having to deal with staff issues on a fair basis knowing their paying customers view the issue on a superficial basis aptly played on in the SQ promotions. Recent flights on CX, SQ and EY definitely have an age barrier in place that US and Aus airlines (VA given time) just can't compete with.
The air hostesses on four recent EY flights were all very competent, extremely hard working, good natured, young and attractive with backgrounds coming from all corners of the globe. I felt sorry for them as they seemingly carried their male stewards who hopefully did a lot more behind the scenes than just broadcasting plane messages in arabic.

 

[TonyHancock]

Thanks, too, to TonyHancock for his humour, which I appreciated.

No problems, although it looks like my original post, and my original "no problems" have been accidentally deleted.????

 

[whatmeworry]

Isn't there an age limit where people have to retire from the workforce?

I thought it was 70 years of age in Australia but I am not sure if the USA has the same rules in place.

I know my old maths teacher was over 70 and the education department tried to make her retire, she fought the system and won her job back. She was a good maths teacher and despite her age she mentally was still firing on all pistons.

 

[whatmeworry]

About a month ago I flew with AA from LAX to ORD. I was surprised to see a female flight attendant whom I estimated to be mid-70s in age. (Now before you all start shouting at me that I have a prejudice against women in their 70s, allow me to tell you that I am married to one, and that I love her dearly.) A couple of years ago I started a thread on this discussion board about an obese AA pilot, whom I estimated to weigh 175kg. I questioned the man’s fitness for duty. I thought this was a reasonable subject for discussion, but all I got for my trouble was a load of abuse for being an exaggerating liar and for being prejudiced against the corpulent. (I would claim that I was neither of these.) Then, before there was any substantial discussion of the safety issues involved, the moderators closed down the thread (inappropriately, in my opinion) because the subject matter was offensive to some over-weight members.

If someone weighed 175kg I would say they were morbidly obese rather just obese.

Reminds me of the episode of "The Simpsons" where Homer gets obese on purpose so he can exploit union rules so he can work from home.

 

[JohnK]

I know my old maths teacher was over 70 and the education department tried to make her retire, she fought the system and won her job back. She was a good maths teacher and despite her age she mentally was still firing on all pistons.

I thought there was an age restriction.

I have worked with a number of people over the years who have been forced to retire and they were not judges, politicians or similar.

 

[drron]

There is no age restriction on pilots.
However there is more than one way to make sure that it gets harder to continue to fly.
for example once an airline pilot reaches 60 it is compulsory to do a stress test.Reading the FAA links the stress test is harder to pass here-the FAA pilots lets an older pilot pass with a reduced time on the treadmill,CASA doesn't.So the older you get the harder it becomes to pass.
there is a benefit to the pilots though.I do a lot of stress tests on pilots.Nothing their doctor tells them about a healthy lifestyle makes much difference.But it is good to see the fitness levels improving when their livelihood depends on it.
One place where there is an age limit is the USA-until now no pilot over 60 could be the captain of a plane arriving in the USA.It has recently been increased to 65.

 

[erkpod]

Reminds me of the episode of "The Simpsons" where Homer gets obese on purpose so he can exploit union rules so he can work from home.

View attachment 17450

I hear that guy's cough has it's own Congressman.

(Classic Homer episode!)

 

[erkpod]

Seriously though, I know how these medicals work in my industry. I'm not the smallest guy in the world but I stand next to some people who are younger than I am & I feel skinny.

I'm on yearly medicals (the default for someone my age doing my job is 5 years).

It was due to me being honest on a medical that led to one of the best changes in my life. I'm glad that it was detected.

 

[bass_ke]

Work related Medicals can be good for peace of mind. Mine involves bloods, urine and an ECG but the casa one certainly looks a bit more stringent.

It's amazing what some people can do, I work with some rather chunky folks that get through the medical and fitness assessment every two years!

 

[simonsyd]

As drron says in Australia (and New Zealand) there is no upper age limit for pilots provided they continue to meet the medical standard. However once over 65 they cannot operate (in command at least) in international airspace due to ICAO rules, so many move to domestic operations - there are numerous over 70 pilots plying domestic routes in Australia.
Another interesting fact a pilot over 60 years currently must operate with a co-pilot under 60 for International RPT operations, this ICAO rule will soon be changed

 

[nlagalle]

To kimjungun: I'm not sure what you find so amusing. I thought I was raising a serious issue. I'm pleased that your 86 year-old father is so sprightly, but I suspect that in an emergency I would prefer younger crew members ahead of him. I can do without your gratuitous advice about how I should live my life before I die. There are certain norms of polite behaviour on this forum, and you, as a newcomer, would do well to learn them.

gee don't tell that to Tommy Hafey... i think you are generalising quite a bit. I've seen elderly people move more freely than a person half their age@

 

[MEL_Traveller]

About a month ago I flew with AA from LAX to ORD. I was surprised to see a female flight attendant whom I estimated to be mid-70s in age. (Now before you all start shouting at me that I have a prejudice against women in their 70s, allow me to tell you that I am married to one, and that I love her dearly.) A couple of years ago I started a thread on this discussion board about an obese AA pilot, whom I estimated to weigh 175kg. I questioned the man’s fitness for duty. I thought this was a reasonable subject for discussion, but all I got for my trouble was a load of abuse for being an exaggerating liar and for being prejudiced against the corpulent. (I would claim that I was neither of these.) Then, before there was any substantial discussion of the safety issues involved, the moderators closed down the thread (inappropriately, in my opinion) because the subject matter was offensive to some over-weight members.

While I was in USA, I had dinner one night with an international flight captain with DL. I shared with him these two observations, of the obese pilot and the elderly flight attendant. He expressed not the least surprise at either instance. In fact, he astounded me by saying that there were numerous older flight attendants in USA, and that Delta actually had a male flight attendant aged 87 years, who regularly crewed on the long haul from MSP to NRT. I found this difficult to believe, but a quick Google search will quickly reveal both the man's name and photo, and verify his age. According to my informant, this gentleman was not popular with other crew members because he simply could not shoulder his share of the work. My informant told me that while initial testing for fitness for duty in USA was comprehensive, ongoing tests were perfunctory at best, and only checked a limited selection of tasks which some people of doubtful fitness could pass. He said that the airlines were too afraid of litigation based on discrimination to dismiss people, even fairly obvious cases.

It seems to me that this situation is not satisfactory to the flying public, who are entrusting their lives to crew in emergency situations. I’m not sure what can be done about it, except maybe pressure from code share partners or ICAO. Pressure from customers seems fairly useless; certainly my letter to AA about the obese pilot went unanswered. I would be interested in the views and/or experiences of other members.

By way of disclosure, may I confess to being in my 70s and moderately over-weight. Although I am still mentally and physically able, I think it would be ridiculous for an airline to continue to employ me as a crew member at this stage of my life, no matter how much experience I might have.

with all due respect to our regular pilot jb747... the fact is that pilots probably have limited knowledge of what training their cabin crew go through each year in their refresher courses.

i have lots cabin crew friends, and the 86 year old was legendary amongst those from the states.

there is also one approaching the same age on UA, and my UA crew friends are all completely satisfied that the FA in question is able to perform all necessary safety functions, and this is confirmed during ongoing safety training.

was the captain you are talking to also a lawyer? otherwise what would he know about litigation? the airline would have a far greater liability from passengers if they had a crew member unable to perform safety functions during an emergency evacuation than they would from an unfair dismissal suit.

quite frankly, your pilot was talking rubbish.

 

[L.Sinc]

Qantas 747 crew are heading this way. A lot of them are getting on a bit! Also seem to hate their job, barely able to be civil to passengers in the main cabin. I find it amazing some of the things I've seen and heard.

 

[nlagalle]

Qantas 747 crew are heading this way. A lot of them are getting on a bit! Also seem to hate their job, barely able to be civil to passengers in the main cabin. I find it amazing some of the things I've seen and heard.

I flew on 2 747 flights last month and the crew were fantastic both ways.

 

[FlyboyAl]

Sorry, I take exception to your remarks.
I flew QF11 last Saturday and the crew were great - I wasn't looking at them regarding their ages, but none of them stood out as "old". they were all having fun, and to me, really enjoying their jobs.
They also loved the chocolates I gave them and many of them came to my seat o say thanks.
If I was emplying cabin crew tomorrow, I would employ them all!
Oh, and the crew on the United flight to SFO were brilliant - they did the drinks run, and clean up on a full 739 in under 40 minutes.