Wake turbulence has FA hurt and PAX shaken (yeah, the last bit's a pun!)

[munitalP]

I had this mornings first OMG flight from AVV to SYD on JQ. Caveat - this is not a JQ rant, and please don't turn it into one!

A couple of minutes after top of decent (my timing may be wrong as I was dozing) the little A320 suddenly got thrown around like a rag doll in a storm. The turbulence was "jolty" and had the AC violently side to side with a reasonable drop thrown in.

I have experienced wake turbulence before - this increased the heart rate a few beats, but quickly settled down as we were back in clear air again in a few short seconds - although I must admit it did seem longer!

From a basically silent flight, there was suddenly a lot of nervous laughter and the lady in the window in my row was sobbing away - I think she had taken a decent whack on the head. The seatbelt sign came off and the flight attendants in front went through the cabin looking for injured PAX - quickly and with purpose in mind.

Coming in to land, we had to pass through a lot of cloud - I took special note of the terror on some PAX faces I could see, the looking around and the tenseness as the plane was slightly buffeted by cloud bumps. I really did feel sorry for the once a year flyers.

On landing the Capitan was on the PA informing us the turbulence was caused by a SIA eek380 passing through our descent path with less than the required 8 miles (i'm sure this will be corrected by our learned members) - quite close in fact...hmmm. I'm thinking CASA straight away...

Anyway, all the PAX alighted with no injuries needing hospital treatment, however, the only male FA on the flight got hurt - the Capitan addressed this as well commenting that medical treatment would be sought after everyone had alighted the AC.

A couple of points:

1. Everyone in my immediate forward view had seat belts on - I was in row 8
2. A number of seats reclined by themselves - this must have frightened the **** out of the person in the seat
3. A couple of overhead bins opened
4. Idiot PAX on leaving the AC opening bins from the rows behind and stuff falling out - I actually caught a laptop that would have hit the floor
5. The JQ staff on that flight could NOT have been more professional about how they went about the cabin checks after the event
6. Wake turbulence sucks!

 

[markis10]

I don't think it's wake turbulence, more likely CAT, while there is an A380 crossing, the replay of flightradar24.com at 1953UTC on the 11th shows her around 8000 below the path of the A320 based on the quick look I had.

 

[munitalP]

I don't think it's wake turbulence, more likely CAT, while there is an A380 crossing, the replay of flightradar24.com at 1953UTC on the 11th shows her around 8000 below the path of the A320 based on the quick look I had.

Im fine with your assumption markis10. I wonder why the Captain of a passenger jet would get it so wrong then....?

 

[straitman]

Im fine with your assumption markis10. I wonder why the Captain of a passenger jet would get it so wrong then....?

... or was he simply offering what sounded like a plausible explanation.

 

[munitalP]

... or was he simply offering what sounded like a plausible explanation.

As I said..... Quote: "I wonder why the Captain of a passenger jet would get it so wrong then....?"

Is it so inconcevable that the captain got it right based on the comments of an ex ATC employee who is a member of AFF who looked up a freeby website on the internet for some info on a flight from this morning? Please....

 

[JohnM]

What's CAT please?

 

[munitalP]

What's CAT please?

Clear Air Turbulence

 

[NM]

What's CAT please?

Clear Air Turbulence

 

[drmikki]

I'm definitely not a weather or flight guru (and I am sure this will be unrelated, but mentioning in case its not) but my DJ flight SYD-PER today (13.15 departure) had quite a lot of turbulence once we got near approximate Adelaide-latitude South then across the Bight and ended up altering both course and altitude to evade it - we were told it was to do with a stonger than expected jetstream at that level. Even once evasive measures were taken it was still pretty bumpy. The pilot even apologised to the J passengers (all 4 of us) after we landed - I told him not to worry, after the bumpy landing into SYD through weather in the REX SAAB, I was much more confident in the 737!

 

[markis10]

As I said..... Quote: "I wonder why the Captain of a passenger jet would get it so wrong then....?"

Is it so inconcevable that the captain got it right based on the comments of an ex ATC employee who is a member of AFF who looked up a freeby website on the internet for some info on a flight from this morning? Please....

I have the advantage of looking at the raw ADSB data which clearly shows the A380 below the A320's flight path by significant amounts, she was below your aircraft by 4000 feet when she was at 340 degrees and 20 miles, given wake turbulence is always below an aircraft, it's unlikely to be from the A380. This sort of information would not have been available to the captain at all, they have nothing but radio traffic and the MK1 eyeball to use and I think it's a reasonable assumption for the captain to make, they certainly don't have radar and it's possible they were in IMC anyway. The fact it's a free website is irrelevant, it does not change the aircraft originated data one iota and provides a better picture than the aircraft in the air have short of being in a wedge tail or P3.

However, as the incident occurred in the very airspace I looked after for many years, CAT or clear air turbulence is very common around Crookwell thanks to the standing waves from the great dividing range, which is why I am suggesting that based on my experience. It's also possible that the history slice of the ADSB data I was looking at missed some data, which is why I gave the details for others to case an experienced eye over should they feel the need.

 

[munitalP]

I have the advantage of looking at the raw ADSB data which clearly shows the A380 below the A320's flight path by significant amounts, she was below your aircraft by 4000 feet when she was at 340 degrees and 20 miles, given wake turbulence is always below an aircraft, it's unlikely to be from the A380. This sort of information would not have been available to the captain at all, they have nothing but radio traffic and the MK1 eyeball to use and I think it's a reasonable assumption for the captain to make, they certainly don't have radar and it's possible they were in IMC anyway. The fact it's a free website is irrelevant, it does not change the aircraft originated data one iota and provides a better picture than the aircraft in the air have short of being in a wedge tail or P3.

However, as the incident occurred in the very airspace I looked after for many years, CAT or clear air turbulence is very common around Crookwell thanks to the standing waves from the great dividing range, which is why I am suggesting that based on my experience. It's also possible that the history slice of the ADSB data I was looking at missed some data, which is why I gave the details for others to case an experienced eye over should they feel the need.

Fair enough, but let me say, I have flown this route more than 500 times in the last 8 years. I have never experienced this type of turbulence before - that is not to say that turbulence has not been experienced on this route.

I have also been victim of CAT over the pacific and over parts of the US. I have been in AC that have plunged a few meters and made your dinner float, but in my many many years as a passenger in an aircraft, I have not experienced what I experienced today.

I would actually prefer that this thread was deleted as relating an experience today on a flight where people got injured, and the "dude" flying the bus told us what had happened, not immediately after it happening, but when on the ground and no doubt while filling in incident reports etc and having been "informed" regarding the too close SIA A380, it (this thread) has ended up in being a waste of effort.

Feel free to close and delete as it seems regardless of what was experienced and informed by the airline, was wrong.

 

[markis10]

If in fact it was caused by another aircraft then I am sure it will come out as a published report, the investigators having access to more data than the general public or even pilots do. Incidentally I hit pretty bad turbulence at FL330 40nm south of Bindook late last year in a GLEX on descent into SYD, which is not far away from where it would appear you had issues, I have also had two CBR SYD flights where the seatbelt sign never came off, of course that's at a much lower altitude, normally around FL220.

The more you fly, the more you get to experience, which is why pilots are hired based on their hours (in most cases), sounds like you had a pretty experienced crew in the front and indeed in the cabin!

 

[Simo]

Sounds like a question for JB747.

 

[support]

I would actually prefer that this thread was deleted as relating an experience today on a flight where people got injured, and the "dude" flying the bus told us what had happened, not immediately after it happening, but when on the ground and no doubt while filling in incident reports etc and having been "informed" regarding the too close SIA A380, it (this thread) has ended up in being a waste of effort.

Feel free to close and delete as it seems regardless of what was experienced and informed by the airline, was wrong.

The thread is now a matter of public record and unless there is some compelling reason for the thread to be deleted then it is inappropriate for that to happen.

There is still plenty of room for discussion on the topic.

 

[QF WP]

I actually think markis10's comment (based on his "after the event "access to very relevant data) COULD be plausible based on and his hundreds (if not thousand+) of hours managing that airspace when working in ATC and with probably a multitude of CAT events during that time that he would have been involved. It gives him a very distinct advantage over what the pilot thinks happened at the moment (or shortly thereafter at landing) - because it depends on what the pilot was told (by ATC or other pilots) or thinks happened in that one event.

As he said, he could be wrong and will find out if there is an incident report to read in the future, we'll know whose situation was correct (or closer) to the actual event outcome, based on the plethora of evidence that would be available. Either way, it is their own opinions, it will become indisputable fact depending on the outcome of any report.

munitalP, you have had your first experience of CAT/wake turbulence (call it what we will at the moment) in many flights over that airspace, so you appear to have been very fortunate. I know that on one of my flights [pretty sure it was 8 Feb 2011 QF805 5.50pm SYD/CBR], I experienced the same thing as markis10 described (selt belts on most of the flight and a series of serious bumps and altitude changes whilst flying near mountainous terrain - but don't know the exact area we were overflying but I was looking out the window at it). I was also flying a DASH8. Being closer to the ground and late afternoon flights after a hot days in SYD, I almost expected a bumpy flight.

 

[QF WP]

Given that he has flown [and been a pax] over this area more than a couple of times in his flying lifetime , I'm sure he could add to the debate.

Sounds like a question for JB747.