Lithium Powerbank Ignites in Qantas Lounge

[milehighclub]

Certain types of matches and lighters have been banned (on Qantas, at least) for years but I’m not sure how accurately that is observed or enforced or could be enforced - yet It’s still a ban.

This is true. Even for smokers, they are actually meant to keep their lighter in their pocket, but how do you tell who is a smoker and therefore ensure this is enforced.

 

[RooFlyer]

But you can take lighters and matches. I don’t think you understand your own analogy.

No, you can't take 'lighters and matches' as a class - have a look at milehigh's post above and here, on Qantas' page

https://www.qantas.com/en-au/baggage/dangerous-goods

What do we see here?



The analogy was about certain types of lighters and matches being banned because of their higher risk - you didn't understand certain types (or Qantas' conditions of carriage, it seems)

Fortunately there are a lot of experts with the knowledge required to conduct appropriate risk assessments so you can stand down.

Thanks for the condescension, but given your demonstrated lack of knowledge on the subject, I don't think you are in a position to opine on others.

 

[justinbrett]

No, you can't take 'lighters and matches' as a class - have a look at milehigh's post above and here, on Qantas' page

https://www.qantas.com/en-au/baggage/dangerous-goods

What do we see here?

View attachment 481082

The analogy was about certain types of lighters and matches being banned because of their higher risk - you didn't understand certain types (or Qantas' conditions of carriage, it seems)



Thanks for the condescension, but given your demonstrated lack of knowledge on the subject, I don't think you are in a position to opine on others.

Ok, let’s join the dots..

You can take certain types of powerbanks, the ones that have been certified to have the necessary safety features and certification.

There are already some checks on powerbanks for restrictions on capacity, but could easily be extended to prohibit certain brands/models and require specific certification marks.

Like China has done.

 

[RooFlyer]

Ok, let’s join the dots..

You can take certain types of powerbanks, the ones that have been certified to have the necessary safety features and certification.

There are already some checks on powerbanks for restrictions on capacity, but could easily be extended to prohibit certain brands/models and require specific certification marks.

Like China has done.

Well done on joining those dots! China is doing it one way. Emirates, as mentioned in posts 51 and 53, has taken a different approach (basically can't use them in flight, must be in seat pocket, and other restrictions), which I thought a good step. But EKs rule may not be observed - someone could still have something charging in the overhead locker.

As I've been saying, to some resistance , its a matter of perceived or assessed degree of risk. If power bank fires continue to occur in flight and if their consequences get more serious, the risk of any current policy for an airline or national regulator will be assessed, and there's a good chance that further restrictions will occur.

 

[equus]

China is doing it one way

And how effective is this going to actually be?

Everyone has seen all those knock off goods complete with certificates of authenticity and the lot. Most of the cheap imitation electrical goods already come with all the compliance and certification marks printed on them - but have never been anywhere near the certification process.

 

[RooFlyer]

And how effective is this going to actually be?

Everyone has seen all those knock off goods complete with certificates of authenticity and the lot. Most of the cheap imitation electrical goods already come with all the compliance and certification marks printed on them - but have never been anywhere near the certification process.

Exactly. I was thinking ... China ... compliance ...

 

[Aeryn]

This is true. Even for smokers, they are actually meant to keep their lighter in their pocket, but how do you tell who is a smoker and therefore ensure this is enforced.

Very easy to smell a smoker

 

[justinbrett]

Well done on joining those dots! China is doing it one way. Emirates, as mentioned in posts 51 and 53, has taken a different approach (basically can't use them in flight, must be in seat pocket, and other restrictions), which I thought a good step. But EKs rule may not be observed - someone could still have something charging in the overhead locker.

As I've been saying, to some resistance , its a matter of perceived or assessed degree of risk. If power bank fires continue to occur in flight and if their consequences get more serious, the risk of any current policy for an airline or national regulator will be assessed, and there's a good chance that further restrictions will occur.

Fantastic! We’re now on the same page. I never argued against further restrictions, just a blanket ban. A blanket ban would have to include laptops and phones to be effective, which is not going to happen.

This is a good article discussing statistics on these types of incidents, and while it confirms a 15% increase over 5 years in total thermal runaway reports - this includes other devices such as laptops, smart phones and vapes. On the latter:

Vapes, while carried by only 10% of passengers, were still the leading cause of thermal runaway incidents, responsible for 28% of the reported total.

New Data Shows Battery Incidents on Aircraft Rose 15% Over Five Years - UL Standards & Engagement

Today, ULSE released the Lithium-Ion Battery Incidents in Aviation: 2024 Data Review highlighting the risk of thermal runaway — which can result in batteries catching fire — and of passenger behavior with the rechargeable battery products they bring on board. The new data comes as multiple...

ulse.org

But as I originally said, the risk goes far beyond aviation, which is leading to action beyond airlines and aviation regulators.

Power bank recalls on the rise due to serious burn and property damage risks

The ACCC is urging consumers to be alert to a growing list of recalled wireless power banks, which have the potential to cause serious burns and property damage.

www.accc.gov.au

Lithium battery fires are on the rise — here are the culprit items

The number of fires caused by exploding lithium-ion batteries in WA so far this year is almost double the number of fires for the entire 2020.

www.abc.net.au

So yes, airlines will continue to manage the risk and put in appropriate mitigation strategies, but the main effort has to be in regulation (not Chinese, but strengthening and enforcing existing western certification systems) and customs to stop them being imported (this is already happening, but should be strengthened).

 

[Quickstatus]

No, you can't take 'lighters and matches' as a class

It looks like a ban on lighters and matches to me rather than a "restriction".

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Fantastic! We’re now on the same page. I never argued against further restrictions, just a blanket ban. A blanket ban would have to include laptops and phones to be effective, which is not going to happen.

This is a good article discussing statistics on these types of incidents, and while it confirms a 15% increase over 5 years in total thermal runaway reports - this includes other devices such as laptops, smart phones and vapes. On the latter:

Vapes, while carried by only 10% of passengers, were still the leading cause of thermal runaway incidents, responsible for 28% of the reported total.

New Data Shows Battery Incidents on Aircraft Rose 15% Over Five Years - UL Standards & Engagement

Today, ULSE released the Lithium-Ion Battery Incidents in Aviation: 2024 Data Review highlighting the risk of thermal runaway — which can result in batteries catching fire — and of passenger behavior with the rechargeable battery products they bring on board. The new data comes as multiple...

ulse.org

But as I originally said, the risk goes far beyond aviation, which is leading to action beyond airlines and aviation regulators.

Power bank recalls on the rise due to serious burn and property damage risks

The ACCC is urging consumers to be alert to a growing list of recalled wireless power banks, which have the potential to cause serious burns and property damage.

www.accc.gov.au

Lithium battery fires are on the rise — here are the culprit items

The number of fires caused by exploding lithium-ion batteries in WA so far this year is almost double the number of fires for the entire 2020.

www.abc.net.au

So yes, airlines will continue to manage the risk and put in appropriate mitigation strategies, but the main effort has to be in regulation (not Chinese, but strengthening and enforcing existing western certification systems) and customs to stop them being imported (this is already happening, but should be strengthened).

That’s not the way restrictions and bans work.

You can ban power banks, because they’re not essential in the same way that a phone is, or even potentially a laptop.

One is a risk you have to live with, the other is not.

Same for vape batteries. Not essential.

If you can’t avoid the risk completely, you can try and minimise it as much as reasonably possible.

 

[RooFlyer]

It looks like a ban on lighters and matches to me rather than a "restriction".

You can take “safety matches“ but not “strike anywhere” matches, per the graphic. Hence my careful use of the qualifier some.

 

[justinbrett]

If you can’t avoid the risk completely, you can try and minimise it as much as reasonably possible.

In risk management, the term is SFARP - so far as reasonably practical. It's not necessary to eliminate risk. It's a process evaluating the likelihood and consequence of an event and appropriate measures you can take to treat it.

This is not a new risk - and despite media reporting, many would be surprised the incident reporting has only increased 15% over 5 years - and in fact dropped in the final year (source linked in my earlier post).

Matches and lighters aren't essential. They're also easily carried in overhead lockers even though the rule is they have to be on your person. Even the lighters that are banned still slipped through. I once accidently got a sharp knife through security in JFK.

Rules such as restricting powerbanks to those with AU/US/EU certification marks (mine has all of these) might not completely eliminate the risk but would significantly reduce it - just look at the number of items already confiscated in China. Customs are checking imports of these. Most western airports are currently checking powerbanks for maximum capacity.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

In risk management, the term is SFARP - so far as reasonably practical. It's not necessary to eliminate risk. It's a process evaluating the likelihood and consequence of an event and appropriate measures you can take to treat it.

This is not a new risk - and despite media reporting, many would be surprised the incident reporting has only increased 15% over 5 years - and in fact dropped in the final year (source linked in my earlier post).

Matches and lighters aren't essential. They're also easily carried in overhead lockers even though the rule is they have to be on your person. Even the lighters that are banned still slipped through. I once accidently got a sharp knife through security in JFK.

Rules such as restricting powerbanks to those with AU/US/EU certification marks (mine has all of these) might not completely eliminate the risk but would significantly reduce it - just look at the number of items already confiscated in China. Customs are checking imports of these. Most western airports are currently checking powerbanks for maximum capacity.

Different rules often apply to aviation and other high-risk and isolated environments given their unique circumstances. For example the ban on water bottles before Aussie flights.

As you say, it’s probably not possible to eliminate the risk, so phones and possible laptops are going to have to be accommodated. I don’t know if there is any argument for powerbanks, unless they are for medical equipment.

 

[justinbrett]

Different rules often apply to aviation and other high-risk and isolated environments given their unique circumstances. For example the ban on water bottles before Aussie flights.

As you say, it’s probably not possible to eliminate the risk, so phones and possible laptops are going to have to be accommodated. I don’t know if there is any argument for powerbanks, unless they are for medical equipment.

Australia is far from the only country not allowing excess liquids on flights. That goes to the inability to verify it is in fact a harmless liquid - but you could bring your water in multiple 100ml bottles. As new tech comes in, these rules are being relaxed - such as LHR. Some of this belongs in the security theatre category which is another topic.

Lighters aren't essential. Still permitted although they can literally start a fire on demand 100% of the time if desired. Weeding out the dodgy powerbanks will go a long way in reducing thermal runaway events. Illegal smoking in toilets probably still happens more.

 

[RooFlyer]

. I never argued against further restrictions, just a blanket ban.

Yair, and I haven’t advocated for a blanket ban either, You’ve been arguing for the sake of it.

I’ve discussed bans, selective prohibitions and their limitations, and how if catastrophic consequences of fires continue bans on power bank carriage may be necessary in the future. Never mentioned other appliances’ battery issues at all.

Banning them would simply be the safer thing to do.

From my point of view, you can either ban power banks or make other strict arrangements in the short term, or wait till it causes a fire and brings an airliner are down.

Emirates, as mentioned in posts 51 and 53, has taken a different approach (basically can't use them in flight, must be in seat pocket, and other restrictions), which I thought a good step. But EKs rule may not be observed - someone could still have something charging in the overhead locker.

 

[justinbrett]

Yair, and I haven’t advocated for a blanket ban either, You’ve been arguing for the sake of it.

I’ve discussed bans, selective prohibitions and their limitations, and how if catastrophic consequences of fires continue bans on power bank carriage may be necessary in the future. Never mentioned other appliances’ battery issues at all.

Now if only you read other people's posts as thoroughly as your own, we wouldn't need to have pointless arguments. My posts have been 100% consistent.

 

[Himeno]

That goes to the inability to verify it is in fact a harmless liquid

What inability? Japan has had liquid scanners since before the UK/US water madness started. Japan offered said scanners to the US and the US refused because they wanted to come up with their own version.

 

[Quickstatus]

You can take “safety matches“ but not “strike anywhere” matches,

But why not ban the safety matches because they come in a box which the match can be struck on the side of the box?.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But why not ban the safety matches because they come in a box which the match can be struck on the side of the box?.

The ‘strike anywhere’ matches contain ignition in/on the match itself. All that is required is friction.

Safety matches the ignition is on the outside of the box, not the match itself.

The former can self ignite, the latter cannot. You have to take a positive action.

I read ages ago something about the dangers of matchbooks in luggage… something about pressure and friction can cause them to heat, smoulder and eventually start of fire. Which is why they’re banned in the hold.

 

[Quickstatus]

All that is required is friction.

Yes I understand, we used it in Scouts eons ago, they were great. I used to dip the tips and part of the shaft in molten wax to protect it.
But safety matches can be easily lit with positive action. Other items which require positive action are scissors. They are technically restricted in terms of blade length but ive had scissors with the protected ends - one blade had a plastic cap and the other an angled rounded tip so they cant be used to stab anyone, confiscated by security at airport. Ive also had duct tape (which also require positive action) confiscated

Maybe water bottles should be allowed as a mitigation against Temu powerbanks.