Air India B787 crash Ahmedabad

[Rabs97]

This guy talks about something called the FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Control) around the 15 minute mark - he tries not to speculate just give information.

Private pilot - never flown anything bigger than a Cessna. Some of the info he mentions (pilot hours) has already been debunked.

He is another of the speculators - quite disliked in the pilot community as he spread false information attacking the pilots of the Toronto CRJ crash.

 

[Rabs97]

Or what about Boeing claiming that the cause of the Lion Air and Ethiopian crash was due to pilot error and inexperience rather than a fundamental design flaw on the MD-737 (dba 737 MAX)? The point being is humans are fallible but the data generally isn’t

The interesting thing is that even after an accident report is published there a still conflicting views, some pilots accept the report, others dispute their conclusions. Accident reports have been proven to have been corrupted, Air NZ at Mt Erebus is a classic example. In Australia there was an infamous case of the Pel Air Norfolk Island ditching where the accident report was found to have multiple errors and omissions and led a Senate inquiry to order the ATSB to redo the investigation.

To this day I still hear some pilots argue the 737 Max incidents, especially ET, were completely recoverable and totally pilot incompetence.

People can never seem to agree on most topics these days and air crashes are amongst them, even among aviation professionals.

 

[Daver6]

All the armchair speculation is just human nature. It's not different to how many AFF'ers who don't work in IT are experts on QF's IT woes

 

[jb747]

I don’t think aviation knowledge plays any role in judging a pilot. Remember when the experts at the NTSB claimed Captain Sully didn’t need to ditch his plane in the Hudson because they got some whiz kids to safely land it in the simulator?

I don't think they really did that though. Adding reaction time into things is a normal aviation trait. I suspect it was mostly movie drama, as if the real thing wasn't dramatic enough.

Or what about Boeing claiming that the cause of the Lion Air and Ethiopian crash was due to pilot error and inexperience rather than a fundamental design flaw on the MD-737 (dba 737 MAX)?

Intentional misleading by Boeing. Very sad display.

The only thing they said was "Mayday". The "no power, no thrust" thing is made up and simply doing the rounds.

Typical.

What's it like over at PPrune?

95% noise, and the occasional gem. Biggest issue is the people who come in at page 20, with a theory that was debunked on page 2!

To this day I still hear some pilots argue the 737 Max incidents, especially ET, were completely recoverable and totally pilot incompetence.

Whilst I've never flown the 737, I had a very good read on the manual trim situation after these events. Anyone who clings to that theory is suffering from a mix of racism and American exceptionalism. The pilots had a good go at handling a very coughty hand. The outcome would have been the same no matter who was doing the flying.

 

[Must...Fly!]

mix of racism and American exceptionalism.

Always a feature of aviation accident commentary. However it's so obvious and without veil that it's clearly noticed, and called out/ignored.

 

[jenib]

All the armchair speculation is just human nature. It's not different to how many AFF'ers who don't work in IT are experts on QF's IT

Agree. It reminds me a bit of Y2K - everyone complained that all the money spent was wasted. They didn't realise that it was a non event because most important things were fixed before they were a problem. At my work 2 minor things were missed - the head of HR was trapped between buildings at midnight because the door system wasn't Y2K compliant and the call centre software stopped working. Neither were life threatening.

There are plenty of things that go wrong that are never 'reported'! Try googling 'zinc whiskers' to see an example my organisation experienced with dramatic effects (again not life threatening but definitely mission critical) Not saying this is anything at all to do with the accident!!! Even people working in an industry don't necessarily know what can go wrong

 

[RSD]

Agree. It reminds me a bit of Y2K - everyone complained that all the money spent was wasted. They didn't realise that it was a non event because most important things were fixed before they were a problem. At my work 2 minor things were missed - the head of HR was trapped between buildings at midnight because the door system wasn't Y2K compliant and the call centre software stopped working. Neither were life threatening.

There are plenty of things that go wrong that are never 'reported'! Try googling 'zinc whiskers' to see an example my organisation experienced with dramatic effects (again not life threatening but definitely mission critical) Not saying this is anything at all to do with the accident!!! Even people working in an industry don't necessarily know what can go wrong

Its a bit like when 2G was turned off - suddenly a lot of equipment that was only equipped with 2G that everyone had long forgotten about became noticed again when things suddenly stopped working!

 

[flyer89]

What's it like over at PPrune?

The thread was locked a few days ago. Answer your question?

 

[DC3]

You'd be amazed at how many people, with only the tiniest bit of actual aviation knowledge, think they can judge pilots.

 

[RSD]

Timely video just appeared in my Youtube video which shows what @jb747 was explaining a few pages back about the landing gear retraction having stopped very early in the sequence. 787-9 landing gear retraction

 

[JohnM]

Unusually early, Hoover has just weighed in:

 

[jb747]

Timely video just appeared in my Youtube video which shows what @jb747 was explaining a few pages back about the landing gear retraction having stopped very early in the sequence. 787-9 landing gear retraction

That does leave us with another question. I’ve asked, but not gotten a definite answer. We know that the first action in the gear retraction sequence is the repositioning of the gear truck, but I don’t know what the no hydraulics rest position of the truck is. I suspect that it would also be the nose down position, because you don’t want the gear to snag anything during a no hydraulics (gravity) extension. So, that still leaves us with a couple of possibilities. The gear was selected up, but the sequence stopped after only a couple of seconds, or possibly the C hydraulic system had already failed. The aircraft will fly with the gear down, so it’s only a symptom, not a cause.

On another subject, apparently the Indians aren’t able to read the FDR, and are looking at sending it to the NTSB.

 

[RSD]

That does leave us with another question. I’ve asked, but not gotten a definite answer. We know that the first action in the gear retraction sequence is the repositioning of the gear truck, but I don’t know what the no hydraulics rest position of the truck is. I suspect that it would also be the nose down position, because you don’t want the gear to snag anything during a no hydraulics (gravity) extension. So, that still leaves us with a couple of possibilities. The gear was selected up, but the sequence stopped after only a couple of seconds, or possibly the C hydraulic system had already failed. The aircraft will fly with the gear down, so it’s only a symptom, not a cause.

On another subject, apparently the Indians aren’t able to read the FDR, and are looking at sending it to the NTSB.

The gear position like you said is a symptom not a cause - and not even really a contributing factor either.

I've got a vague recollection that only a few countries around the world have the facilities to read FDR's - U.S. and France are two of them.

 

[oz_mark]

The gear position like you said is a symptom not a cause - and not even really a contributing factor either.

I've got a vague recollection that only a few countries around the world have the facilities to read FDR's - U.S. and France are two of them.

I saw something about the FDR being damaged, and hence needed to go elsewhere to be read.

 

[markis10]

The gear position like you said is a symptom not a cause - and not even really a contributing factor either.

I've got a vague recollection that only a few countries around the world have the facilities to read FDR's - U.S. and France are two of them.

Plenty of countries including India can process the data, to different levels of proficiency if they are damaged. India recently built a new lab for this. Aerodynamic does this locally in Australia and the UK.

I saw something about the FDR being damaged, and hence needed to go elsewhere to be read.

Article from yesterday gives some good context

AAIB to decide where to analyse black boxes of crashed Air India plane after assessing ‘technical, safety, security’ considerations

Sources indicated that deliberations are underway on whether to send units to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) Vehicle Recorder Laboratory in the US for data extraction and analysis, or perform the exercise at the AAIB’s new black box lab in Delhi, but a decision is yet to be taken.

indianexpress.com

 

[jb747]

Unusually early, Hoover has just weighed in:

I've just watched that all the way through, and I'm disappointed that he comes to the final 'conclusion' that he does. I don't think he has anything to really base it on, and is suffering from the same youtuber race that he mentions at the start. It's reasonable to look at what we can see as symptoms, but foolhardy to try to jump in and be first to hit the 'answer'.

 

[RSD]

I've just watched that all the way through, and I'm disappointed that he comes to the final 'conclusion' that he does. I don't think he has anything to really base it on, and is suffering from the same youtuber race that he mentions at the start. It's reasonable to look at what we can see as symptoms, but foolhardy to try to jump in and be first to hit the 'answer'.

Totally agree - he's plucked that idea from somewhere without there being anything at all to suggest that is what happened.

 

[RSD]

I've just watched that all the way through, and I'm disappointed that he comes to the final 'conclusion' that he does. I don't think he has anything to really base it on, and is suffering from the same youtuber race that he mentions at the start. It's reasonable to look at what we can see as symptoms, but foolhardy to try to jump in and be first to hit the 'answer'.

@jb747 - have you seen this video - it and the first 20 or so comments could be narrowing in on the cause - Video about FSOV

 

[flyer89]

Investigators are now looking further into a fuel contamination incident involving an A321 in the UK in 2020. All rather strange.

The Aviation Herald

Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

avherald.com

 

[Must...Fly!]

I wonder if they are simply trying to exclude any connection between the incident at Hong Kong and this.

I think @jb747 outlined earlier in the thread a few reasons why fuel is rather unlikely to be a cause of the incident. At least, not fuel supplied at the airport.

Who knows what else might have been in the tanks - but a more or less simultaneous failure indicates quite a number of other possibilities that are far more probable, IMO.