Is Norfolk Island a Qantas International Destination?

[GrahamBRI]

I have travelled to Norfolk Island a bunch of times since Qantas took over the route and more often than not via J Classic Award. I only just noticed on this occasion that I am receiving 24 Status Credits for the flight (Points Club), which indicates an international destination, instead of the 28 status credits for a domestic destination.

As a frequent traveller to Norfolk, I am well aware, flights depart and arrive through international terminals and the Qantas flight number, follows the international flight numbering convention, and the Island itself is duty free….. however, from my perspective, none of these unique characteristics of Norfolk make the island an International destination. It clearly has just as many uniquely domestic characteristics as well - hospitals and education provide by Queensland, votes in the ACT electoral district, has a NSW postcode, you don’t need a passport to travel there….. and it is a Territory of Australia just like Australia’s other Territories.

Qantas itself notes the anomaly of “Australian domestic flights departing from an international terminal (flights QF1-QF399) are flights between Australian capital cities that connect to or from a Qantas international service. For example, flight QF9 from Melbourne to Perth continues on as QF9 from Perth to London.” And clearly notes these as domestic flights. So what is the story with Norfolk?

Well according to my correspondence with Qantas, it is because: “Norfolk Island route is classified as a mid-range international flight, given its proximity to New Caledonia”…… a very interesting criteria!!!!!

When I explained: “Horn Island is considered a Qantas Domestic location and it is 547km from Papua New Guinea (Port Moresby). Norfolk Island is 767km from New Caledonia, so by this definition, why does Qantas consider Horn Island Domestic and not International as well.”. They replied “we consider your previous flight as a mid-range international flight, given its proximity to New Caledonia.”….. hmmm great response!!

 

[oz_mark]

A bit like Cocos and Christmas Island, Norfolk Island fits into the special case 'external territories' bucket. In some respects they are treated as domestic, and in others international.

As for Horn Island, it is regarded as part of Queensland.

 

[justinbrett]

I’d be leaning towards it being an international flight.

It’s inside the immigration zone but outside of the customs zone. They are required to operate to/from international terminals so I think that pretty much settles it. You’re entitled to duty free which is a nice concession.

 

[GrahamBRI]

A bit like Cocos and Christmas Island, Norfolk Island fits into the special case 'external territories' bucket. In some respects they are treated as domestic, and in others international.

Yes, acknowledging it is a special case in terms of a lot of things, but, personally, I don’t think any of these special cases form an adequate definition in terms of “domestic travel”.

As for Horn Island, it is regarded as part of Queensland.

Acknowledged. My point was that Qantas was using close proximity to another country to form their opinion of what is domestic or international. As they gave me no other basis for their definition, I was pointing out that the definition they used was flawed.

They are required to operate to/from international terminals so I think that pretty much settles it.

So as I noted above, why does Qantas itself use the term domestic when it refers to other flights operating to and from international terminals - “Australian domestic flights departing from an international terminal (flights QF1-QF399)……”. This is not a consistent application of the term, by them.

I also note that the Australian Government, has already defined this route as a Domestic Flight -

Factsheet: Domestic travel between Norfolk Island and mainland Australia

So, while I acknowledge that it’s special case, and there will be lots of different viewpoints here. I am yet to see anything would cleary define this as an international flight and I see plenty to say it is domestic. What is Qantas’s basis for it decision - since proximity to New Caledonia is an insufficient reason.

 

[justinbrett]

So as I noted above, why does Qantas itself use the term domestic when it refers to other flights operating to and from international terminals - “Australian domestic flights departing from an international terminal (flights QF1-QF399)……”. This is not a consistent application of the term, by them.

I also note that the Australian Government, has already defined this route as a Domestic Flight -

Factsheet: Domestic travel between Norfolk Island and mainland Australia

So, while I acknowledge that it’s special case, and there will be lots of different viewpoints here. I am yet to see anything would cleary define this as an international flight and I see plenty to say it is domestic. What is Qantas’s basis for it decision - since proximity to New Caledonia is an insufficient reason.

No - key difference is that Qantas is not required to operate flights between Melbourne and Perth from international terminals. It elects to do that to enable transit on to London. These are completely different to NLK services.

A better resource:

Norfolk Island travel information

Where is Norfolk Island? Norfolk Island is situated in the Pacific Ocean approximately 1,600km north-east of Sydney, 890km north-east of Lord Howe Island and 1,100km north-west of Auckland. What time zone is used in Norfolk Island? Norfolk Island observes Norfolk Time (UTC+11). Daylight saving...

www.infrastructure.gov.au

Flights depart and arrive via international terminals, do international movement conditions apply?
Yes, your travel experience will be similar to an international traveller. You must complete an incoming passenger card, and you and your luggage will be screened and could be inspected by Australian Border Force and Biosecurity officers.

From 1 July 2016, the Biosecurity Act 2015 will apply to movements onto Norfolk Island, and biosecurity import conditions will apply to all goods arriving onto Norfolk Island.

You must declare certain food, plant material (including wooden articles) and animal products on your incoming passenger card.

 

[GrahamBRI]

A better resource:

Norfolk Island travel information

Where is Norfolk Island? Norfolk Island is situated in the Pacific Ocean approximately 1,600km north-east of Sydney, 890km north-east of Lord Howe Island and 1,100km north-west of Auckland. What time zone is used in Norfolk Island? Norfolk Island observes Norfolk Time (UTC+11). Daylight saving...

www.infrastructure.gov.au

Acknowledged, that is the latest version of what I posted. The one I posted, clearly stated the Federal Governments change in position in respect to Norfolk. It stated “From 1 July 2016, travel to Norfolk Island from mainland Australia will be classed as domestic travel”. The updated version you have posted, no longer states this change - I assume since the change in status is now well established (was made back in 2016).

Flights depart and arrive via international terminals, do international movement conditions apply?
Yes, your travel experience will be similar to an international traveller. You must complete an incoming passenger card, and you and your luggage will be screened and could be inspected by Australian Border Force and Biosecurity officers.

From 1 July 2016, the Biosecurity Act 2015 will apply to movements onto Norfolk Island, and biosecurity import conditions will apply to all goods arriving onto Norfolk Island.

You must declare certain food, plant material (including wooden articles) and animal products on your incoming passenger card.

This extract from the current page, was also on the old page I published. Clearly these “experience” and “biosecurity” conditions still apply and are pertinent to the traveller today. In addition to this information, that was on both pages, the previous version, also included the specific change that occurred in 2016 that the Norfolk Island status had changed to domestic travel. As noted above, this has obviously been dropped, but that, I assume is just because it is no longer noteworthy since the status of the island as “self-governing” was removed in that year (2016)…. Much to the objection of the residents.
….. and also noting that travelling interstate (eg WA) has many similar biosecurity stuff as per these international rules, just the “experience” is different. Not sure you have convinced me yet that “international traveler” “experience” is a good definition of the an “international route”…… and I assume we all acknowledge that the word “international” means “between nations”…. So in my view, a completely inappropriate word for the travel to Norfolk. (With or without experiences and benefits akin to international travel)

 

[MEL_Traveller]

You are right. Technically, by definition, the flight is domestic as it is between two points in Australia.

Operationally however, it is treated as an international flight for the purposes of customs control. Passengers are required to complete an incoming passenger declaration.

Perhaps more importantly, for SC earning, Qantas ‘says’ it is international because it carries a flight number within the 1-399 range.

Unlike the domestic tag flights, all passengers on the NLK flights are subject to customs control. Pax on the QF9/10 and others could be a mix, some subject to immigration and customs control, and others not.

 

[TheInsider]

Someone in MNL/CPT isn't really to give you a suitable answer. How are you corresponding with Qantas, and what are you trying to achieve by speaking to the airline?

 

[GrahamBRI]

Someone in MNL/CPT isn't really to give you a suitable answer. How are you corresponding with Qantas, and what are you trying to achieve by speaking to the airline?

As indicated, I have undertaken heaps of trips to Norfolk and mainly via Classic Rewards (points club member), but never noticed the anomaly before, So when I noticed I just asked the question, why 4 status credits less than I expected….. I made one phone call (guessing I got a MNL agent) and got the reason of closeness to New Caledonia. I requested escalation of the call (as the flight was between two domestic locations) could not escalate on the day, but gave me a reference number. Few days later I got an email from Frequent_Flyer@…. and I got the same response in an email, of proximity to New Caledonia. I sent a response to this email and tried as best as I could to explain that proximity to another country was not something that should make a flight considered international or not…… but after another week or so, got the same answer back in an email……
What was I trying to achieve - I assumed it was some coding error (due to flight number being of international designation) that could/should be fixed so others get the correct (as advertised) status points for a domestic flight…… and if by acknowledgment of the error they gave some or even one of my flights missing status points (4 per sector), I might walk away as a happier customer.
I acknowledge there will be many different views on this topic, and I assumed I would get some half reasonable explanation from Qantas, but was very surprised with what they had to offer.
Listening to the views placed above, I think there exists some very reasonable counter arguments for all of them. I am still interested in finding that overwhelming reason for why international (preferably from Qantas). But at the end of the day if the airline can just operationally consider it as international (for some better reason than New Caledonia), then that is that. I did not notice on all my other flights, so clearly not the end of the world for me…..

 

[hutch]

I'm curious as to why it really matters?

 

[justinbrett]

Acknowledged, that is the latest version of what I posted. The one I posted, clearly stated the Federal Governments change in position in respect to Norfolk. It stated “From 1 July 2016, travel to Norfolk Island from mainland Australia will be classed as domestic travel”. The updated version you have posted, no longer states this change - I assume since the change in status is now well established (was made back in 2016).

This extract from the current page, was also on the old page I published. Clearly these “experience” and “biosecurity” conditions still apply and are pertinent to the traveller today. In addition to this information, that was on both pages, the previous version, also included the specific change that occurred in 2016 that the Norfolk Island status had changed to domestic travel. As noted above, this has obviously been dropped, but that, I assume is just because it is no longer noteworthy since the status of the island as “self-governing” was removed in that year (2016)…. Much to the objection of the residents.
….. and also noting that travelling interstate (eg WA) has many similar biosecurity stuff as per these international rules, just the “experience” is different. Not sure you have convinced me yet that “international traveler” “experience” is a good definition of the an “international route”…… and I assume we all acknowledge that the word “international” means “between nations”…. So in my view, a completely inappropriate word for the travel to Norfolk. (With or without experiences and benefits akin to international travel)

You can’t buy duty free going to WA and you don’t have to fill out an arrivals card. It’s completely different. You’re also entitled to use the TRS going into NLK.

The most generous interpretation is that it’s somewhere between a domestic and an international flight. It’s unusual. To be fair, the table heading says “domestic travel within Australia”. Norfolk Island is in New Zealand airspace and ATC comes from Auckland. So the flight does leave Australia and re-enters it at NLK.

QF does treat it as an international flight. You can see this even when booking, the fares available and associated rules. So it’s not just a coding error, QF has made the decision to sell it as an international flight. I assume that means you should get champagne onboard which is probably worth the 4SCs.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I believe it’s domestic catering? Friend of mine flew it a few weeks ago and I think it was the Louis sparkling.

 

[justinbrett]

I believe it’s domestic catering? Friend of mine flew it a few weeks ago and I think it was the Louis sparkling.

Well in that case, complain!

Actually reading the QF airport guide for NLK I don’t think they know either, it refers to both domestic and international flights.

 

[Quickstatus]

But at the end of the day if the airline can just operationally consider it as international

I've slightly modified your comment to arrive at the answer.

 

[GrahamBRI]

I've slightly modified your comment to arrive at the answer.

Thanks. I can stand down then and find another topic which to ponder

......nahh, not sure I can walk away that quickly ........

For flights to Norfolk Island, Qantas sells travel insurance. Guess what.......

Issuer: AIG Australia Ltd
Policy: Australian Comprehensive
Destinations: NORFOLK ISLAND, AUSTRALIA

so lucky that nothing happened on my international flight with only domestic cover.......

 

[GrahamBRI]

I'm curious as to why it really matters?

Because you get more status points if it is considered domestic, than if it is considered international....... surely that matters to some of us.

 

[Quickstatus]

Qantas sells travel insurance.

NI residents are eligible for Medicare.

Additionally QF is just the marketer of the insurance. Claims are not paid by QF but If I recall AIG. So the underwriter complies with relevant legislation.

Similarly Qantas health insurance is actually NIB

Unfortunately it appears to me that QF just unilaterally decided "it is so"

 

[hutch]

Because you get more status points if it is considered domestic, than if it is considered international....... surely that matters to some of us.

Swings and roundabouts... I'd take the international terminal and access to the F lounge over the 4 status credits. Each to their own of course.

 

[GrahamBRI]

Swings and roundabouts... I'd take the international terminal and access to the F lounge over the 4 status credits. Each to their own of course.

So would I........ but no F in BNE and you need to be Plat to get in if they had one......
I am actually (for the very first time) targeting platinum at the moment and because it was going to be very close for me I was tracking every credit...... so this trivial amount for me of a total of 8, would have left me short, which drew my attention to the difference..... but luckily my circumstances will be okay and back on track without these 8..... putting aside my trivial amount this year, I think it actually is closer to 80 credits on this route for me since 2021, I it must be a huge amount over the total community, so something I thought was worth exploring further.
...... not much support from this community with my interpretation (and that of the dictionary and the federal government and the insurer... and for that matter the original annoncment by the AFF community on this route Qantas to Norfolk Island), but all good.

 

[Warragul]

The External Territories are a unique beast, governed by Federal laws but treated differently than the states and NT/ACT for some. Eg travel from mainland is domestic under the Migration Act but international under the Customs Act. Resulting in valid points for domestic/ international when debating the original question in this thread.