Fire on board Jetstar flight

[pauly7]

Probably because news.com.au are using a stock picture showing a Jetstar Boeing 717 (as they always seem to use for a story about Jetstar), showing how much they know about aircraft .

You aren't having a go at their accuracy are you

For 3-4 days they were running a A380 pic for the tragic A330 incident... I wasn't even aware Air France had A380's yet...

 

[docjames]

Do JQ normally have 4 pilots on this flight?


I thought even QF only had 3 from SYD-LAX etc? Or do they normally carry 4?

 

[harvyk]

it's 4, a pilot \ co-pilot and a relief pilot \ co-pilot. Basically the Pilot \ Co-Pilot take the bird into the air and fly it for a few hours, the relief pilot \ co-pilot fly it for a few hours whilst the normal pilot \ co-pilot are resting, them the pilot \ co-pilot take over again and land the thing.

This is how they can handle long flights, I don't know at what number of scheduled hours is considered the maximum that only 2 pilots are allowed to fly for, but I'm pretty sure (at least on the long haul flights) that the Pilot \ Co-Pilots fly the first 4 or so, the relief takes over for the middle set of hours, and the Pilot \ Co-Pilot take over again about 4 hours before landing, obviously this formula is changed a little for 8 hour flights.

There are very few 3 crew flights still being undertaken. I believe QF no longer has 3 crew A\C as the last of the flight engineers went with the B743 at the end of last year.

 

[docjames]

Cheers harvyk,

Just to clarify, i did not mean a flight engineer, i did mean "extra" pilots.

I was surprised an 8hr flight scores 4 crew.

Any other takers on at what point the a/c needs 3 or 4 crew?

 

[harvyk]

At least in the US, it's 8 hours. Although different countries \ airlines have different rules. Don't know what it is for AU but I expect it's somewhat the same.

It also appears that it's 8 hours of actual flying is the trigger, not scheduled flight time, so some airlines may employee relief pilots even though the scheduled flight time is less than 8 to make sure they don't fall foul of any rules incase of diversions \ bad weather \ head winds etc...

 

[NM]

Do JQ normally have 4 pilots on this flight?

A 9 hour scheduled flight on an A330 would normally only require 2 pilots on board. At least one will hold the rank of Captain and the other would be a First Officer. Additional pilots may be on board either for training purposes (i.e. a Second Officer) or check purposes. It is my understanding that a 2-person tech crew can operate flights scheduled up to 11 hours under certain circumstances. The limit is the duty time which must include a minimum amount of time before and after the scheduled flight and varies slightly according to the duty commencement time. The CASA regulations for International flights for tech crew duty management can be seen here.

I thought even QF only had 3 from SYD-LAX etc? Or do they normally carry 4?

For SYD-LAX, Qantas operate with 4 pilots, usually 1 Captain, 1 First Officer and 2 Second Officers.

For take-off and landing the Captain will occupy the left seat and the FO will occupy the right seat. Once cruise is established, one of them will take a break and one of the SOs will slot into the empty front seat. Then later the Captain and FO will swap for a rest. At all times either the Captain or FO will be in one of the front seats, while the SOs take it in shifts to occupy the other.

Some airlines operate long-haul flights with relief crews. In this operating model each crew consists of a Captain and a FO. One crew commences the journey and the other takes over part way through.

Qantas' pilot training and ranking system uses the Second Officer rank for operational training and is unusual in the industry. An SO is not allowed in the front seat for take-off or landing except if the Captain or FO is incapacitated. An SO is a qualified pilot undergoing training to become an FO on the type being flown. I expect this model is also used on the Airbus aircraft. It has been the case for 747 aircraft for many years at Qantas.

 

[docjames]

Thanks NM, i guess that then intrigues me as to why there were 4 pilots on JQ (sched flying time on this route is <10hrs presumably?)

 

[Ikara]

Heard the CEO of Jetstar interviewed this morning from NZ. He said that the reason there were 4 pilots on board is because it was a check flight and there was a check flight Captain on board. It was an unusual situation, but this is one time I'd like them to be "top heavy".

JB

 

[NM]

At least in the US, it's 8 hours. Although different countries \ airlines have different rules. Don't know what it is for AU but I expect it's somewhat the same.

It also appears that it's 8 hours of actual flying is the trigger, not scheduled flight time, so some airlines may employee relief pilots even though the scheduled flight time is less than 8 to make sure they don't fall foul of any rules incase of diversions \ bad weather \ head winds etc...

For Australian airline its defined by CASA under their crew duty management program. The hours vary depending on the type of operations (international or domestic), the number of sectors and the time of day the duty commenced. The duty period must allow a minimum time for pre-flight and post flight work. Some rest periods can extend the duty allowance by up to 4 hours. There are also monthly and annual duty time limits (generally 100 hours/month and 1000 hours/year).

 

[codash1099]

It appears that the unions aren't pleased with some of the remarks coming from Jetstar

coughpit fire forces Jetstar emergency landing in Guam

 

[Slats7]

Seems news.com.au does not have a monopoly on such comments when it comes to aircraft

Have you done any research into recent reports of fire/smoke on aircraft? Have you looked at how many such incidents (smoke/fire in coughpit) in the last year have been on Airbus aircraft compared with Boeing, MD, Embraer, Canadair etc aircraft? A quick search at Aviation Herald reveals these recent accidents and incidents involving fire/smoke in aircraft coughpits:

American B763 over Atlantic on Jun 9th 2009, electrical fire in cabin - fan motor caught fire.
Tuifly B738 near Geneva on Jun 7th 2009, smoke in cabin
United Airlines B752 near Indianapolis on May 15th 2009, smoke in coughpit
British Airways B763 near Budapest on May 12th 2009, smoke in cabin
United Airlines B763 near Bangor on Apr 1st 2009, smoke in coughpit
United B772 at Heathrow on Feb 26th 2007, smoke from right electrical bus during taxi
American MD82 at San Diego on Mar 29th 2009, smoke in coughpit
Ryanair B738 near Gdansk on Mar 12th 2009, burning smell in coughpit
Cirrus E170 at Muenster on Feb 21st 2009, smoke in cabin and coughpit
Cimber AT72 at Karup on Feb 13th 2009, smoke in coughpit before departure
British Airways B772 at Abuja on Jan 24th 2009, smoke in coughpit
Southwest B733 near Jacksonville on Jan 24th 2009, smoke in coughpit
Piedmont DH8A near Wilkes-Barre on Dec 25th 2008, smoke in coughpit
Delta Airlines MD88 near Greenville on Dec 11th 2008, smoke in coughpit
Skywest E120 at Palm Springs on Dec 3rd 2008, smoke in coughpit
Chautauqua CRJ2 at Houston on Nov 24th 2008, smoke in coughpit and cabin
Delta Airlines B752 near Halifax on Oct 11th 2008, smoke in coughpit
American Eagle E135 near Alexandria on Sep 26th 2008, smoke in coughpit
Jetblue Airways A320 at Palm Beach on Sep 18th 2008, smoke in coughpit
Thomsonfly B763 at Cancun on Sep 4th 2008, smoke in cabin
Easyjet A319 at Copenhagen on Aug 23rd 2008, smoke in the coughpit
United Airlines B772 near Montreal on Aug 18th 2008, smoke in cabin and coughpit
Continental B73G near Santa Ana on Aug 7th 2008, smell of smoke in coughpit

Of course very few of these incidents and accidents received much media coverage in Australia.

I could not find another coughpit fire/smoke report for an Airbus A330 aircraft in the database. DOH! I fail to see how anyone can draw the conclusion that the A330 has inherent design problems based on the information so far available from the JQ incident and diversion to GUM.


Virgin Blue flies 737NG and V-Australia flies 777 aircraft. Both these types have had more reports at Aviation Herald of smoke in the coughpit than the A330s flown by Jetstar and Qantas.

Those comments are from news.com.au not me!

 

[Slats7]

How many fatal accidents have there been involving an A330 that is in passenger service?

One.

Contemporary aircraft from both Airbus and Boeing are very safe, but they are also very complicated machines and of course things go wrong from time to time. If you want all problems in all aircraft fixed before they fly, then you will be close to grounding the entire worldwide fleet of aircraft.

That's a comment off news.com.au not mine!

 

[NM]

Thanks NM, i guess that then intrigues me as to why there were 4 pilots on JQ (sched flying time on this route is <10hrs presumably?)

Quite possible that at least one was a Second Officer (i.e. training). Could also be that the Captain flying was also in training and operating under instruction from another qualified Captain. There are plenty of reasons to have more than the minimum number of pilots on board.

 

[oz_mark]

It appears that the unions aren't pleased with some of the remarks coming from Jetstar

coughpit fire forces Jetstar emergency landing in Guam

Just part of the usual union agenda. They should be happy that the heavy maintenance is going to be done in Australia later.

(As for the 747 issue, I assume that was this one: 200801100, and reads more of a manufacturing/design issue than necassarily a maintenance issue)

 

[mannej]

It does amuse me the level of ignorance amongst the experts who post comments on news.com.au. It always has always will. Comments such as someone stating that flight1549 was a330 and it crashed because it was airbus for example are amusing. Slats7 has quoted the other comments which are plain ignorant.

At the end of the day, QF/JQ's safety record is still very reassuring if you compare it to the problems the media portray QF/JQ to have.

 

[Mal]

Union seems to be implying that it's overseas maintenance causing this:

The Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association says it is the second time in 18 months a Qantas Group plane has had to make an emergency landing because of coughpit smoke.

The association's federal secretary, Steve Purvinas, says a Boeing 747 landed in Sydney in similar circumstances last year.

He says major maintenance on the planes involved in both incidents was done overseas.

Jetstar coughpit fire: Investigators head to Guam - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[oz_mark]

That's a comment off news.com.au not mine!

Sorry - wasn't meant to be directed at you!

 

[Slats7]

Sorry - wasn't meant to be directed at you!

It's all good, i'm just not that stupid

 

[serfty]

Further article here:

Hero pilot tells how he saved burning jet | Herald Sun

... The Melbourne pilot was flying at 12,000m from Japan to the Gold Coast when a loud bang and a white flash erupted from his co-pilot's windscreen.

"Never in all my years of flying commercial aircraft had I seen anything like it," Capt Banfield told passengers after landing the jet safely at Guam, almost halfway to its destination. ...

 

[Nigelinoz]

No mention of Qantas in that article serfty.
Must be an anti Qantas conspiracy for them not to mention that Jetstar is part of Qantas!.