General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[jb747]

The PM said he will not tell us as it is "commercial-in-confidence".

Which presumably translates as "I don't know, but don't want to admit it".

 

[Pushka]

Which presumably translates as "I don't know, but don't want to admit it".

Or. I do know and I don’t want to admit it!

 

[TheRealTMA]

Yes, it’s the Guardian. Read this para - it’s not even internally consistent. First talking about numbers, then saying this is contra to an announcement about access.

The pharmaceutical giant Pfizer says there is no change in the number of doses the company has contracted to deliver to Australia over 2021 – contradicting reportsasserting the Morrison government had secured a “game-changing deal” to triple its access to the jabs.

Just as well it wasn’t the ‘Murdock’ (sic) press.

Some more details.
"
From his home in Connecticut, Pfizer’s former president of global R&D, John LaMattina, has been closely observing the global rush for vaccines, including Australia’s efforts to procure doses.

He says Australia’s delay in securing a deal with Pfizer, while “unfortunate”, was understandable, because the success in containing Covid-19 had afforded it more time than others.

But the amount Australia eventually secured in November was “clearly lacking” and “unconscionable”.

“Once the amazing and unprecedented efficacy of the mRNA vaccines was established, ordering a mere 10m doses was unconscionable,” he says. “When both Pfizer and Moderna demonstrated the potent efficacy of their vaccines, every country should immediately have reached out to these companies to place their orders.

“In the case of Australia, enough vaccine to inoculate its entire population over the age of 18 should have been done at once. Assuming that is about 20m Australians, this would have cost about US$780m … How much has Australia spent on Covid-19 relief packages?”"

‘Stuffed’: how Australia’s ‘unconscionable’ gamble on Covid vaccines backfired

The prime minister jumped the gun in November 2020 when he declared ‘we can look forward to a much better 2021’

www.theguardian.com

 

[mviy]

It's easy to criticise things in hindsight, but we can't change the past. We have to look forward to the future.

Had the government ordered more Pfizer and had the AZ or UoQ vaccine done the bulk of the population there would have been criticism of the waste of ordering too many doses of a vaccine that wasn't needed.

 

[burmans]

Plenty of people criticised it at the time so can’t really be described as hindsight then.

 

[mviy]

I think if they had their time over they'd definitely do things differently. However, mRNA is a new technology and they probably had advice that it was less likely to produce a viable vaccine and that even if it did it would be much more expensive to order and much more challenging to store and distribute. Needing to store in very cold fridges does make it much more difficult to roll-out.

Pfizer have changed things to make it easier to distribute now than the original recommendations, making it possible to distribute through the crucially important GP channel, not just limited mass vaccination hubs.

Had the UoQ candidate been successful and the AZ not been slammed over very rare side effects, you can be sure the Opposition would have been very critical now of the government "wasting money" purchasing 40 million Pfizer doses had they done so when they ordered the original 10 million.

 

[TheRealTMA]

I think if they had their time over they'd definitely do things differently. However, mRNA is a new technology and they probably had advice that it was less likely to produce a viable vaccine and that even if it did it would be much more expensive to order and much more challenging to store and distribute. Needing to store in very cold fridges does make it much more difficult to roll-out.

Pfizer have changed things to make it easier to distribute now than the original recommendations, making it possible to distribute through the crucially important GP channel, not just limited mass vaccination hubs.

Had the UoQ candidate been successful and the AZ not been slammed over very rare side effects, you can be sure the Opposition would have been very critical now of the government "wasting money" purchasing 40 million Pfizer doses had they done so when they ordered the original 10 million.

Just rationalisation for the stuff up I suggest. Obviously our “leaders” we’re not hoodwinked by vaccine companies like every other country. That’s why we’re at the bottom of the list. $780 million as stated above would have been a very cheap price to pay.

 

[mviy]

I'm not disputing that in hindsight they should have ordered Pfizer earlier, but they made decisions based on the information available to them at the time and until the AZ clotting happened the health advice to the government clearly was that Pfizer was unlikely to be needed to do the bulk of the vaccinations, but would be valuable for getting the most vulnerable and health workers vaccinated quickly.

 

[drron]

“Once the amazing and unprecedented efficacy of the mRNA vaccines was established, ordering a mere 10m doses was unconscionable,” he says. “When both Pfizer and Moderna demonstrated the potent efficacy of their vaccines, every country should immediately have reached out to these companies to place their orders.

I take any quote from a Pfizer executive with the proverbial grain of salt as they are masters of spin.in this case he is tripped up by an unfortunate fact.Here is their press release advising of their amazing and unprecedented efficacy.

ttps://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-conclude-phase-3-study-covid-19-vaccine

Just note the date.

Pfizer and BioNTech Conclude Phase 3 Study of COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate, Meeting All Primary Efficacy Endpoints​

Wednesday, November 18, 2020 - 06:59am

Of course our government announced it's deal on November 5th.
The guardian and the ABC seem to have forgotten the ABC fact check units statement on whether we were at the back of the queue.

A definitive list of the deals made between Pfizer and various countries for its vaccine is not publicly available.

But a tally compiled from government and corporate media releases suggests around 350 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine were accounted for in pre-purchase agreements before Australia announced its deal on November 5.

Mr Bowen's suggested tally of 1 billion doses would only be reached if so-called "optional" doses were included, as well as a deal with the European Union for 200 million pre-purchased doses and 100 million optional doses.

We fact checked Chris Bowen on Pfizer vaccine deals. Here's what we found

As the Pfizer vaccine was approved in Australia, Labor's former spokesman for health, Chris Bowen, claimed 1 billion doses had been secured around the world before Australia made its deal with the company. RMIT ABC Fact Check investigates.

www.abc.net.au

 

[TheRealTMA]

I'm not disputing that in hindsight they should have ordered Pfizer earlier, but they made decisions based on the information available to them at the time and until the AZ clotting happened the health advice to the government clearly was that Pfizer was unlikely to be needed to do the bulk of the vaccinations, but would be valuable for getting the most vulnerable and health workers vaccinated quickly.

You forgot to add “unlike practically every other rich country.” Sheer incompetence. A pity some won’t accept the failure and demand proper planning and action.

 

[DC3]

“ … But the amount Australia eventually secured in November was “clearly lacking” and “unconscionable” …”

Well, well, well.

 

[DC3]

It's easy to criticise things in hindsight, but we can't change the past. We have to look forward to the future.

Had the government ordered more Pfizer and had the AZ or UoQ vaccine done the bulk of the population there would have been criticism of the waste of ordering too many doses of a vaccine that wasn't needed.

Criticism on over-ordering? Not sure where that would come from.

 

[DC3]

40 million doses of Pfizer is a decent amount considering all those that have had AZ and may yet have it.

A long way to go.

 

[Pushka]

You forgot to add “unlike practically every other rich country.” Sheer incompetence. A pity some won’t accept the failure and demand proper planning and action.

But that only happened well after the original orders were made. Look, I'm a critic of all governments blue and red, but in this case, in choosing AZ, I can't criticise the Govt. The rollout and media campaign and messaging has been dreadful. But the choice of which vaccine? That was just incredibly unlucky once it was rolled out to the masses. And overblown by a cooked media. And more recently, by certain politicians.

My son is in the UK. He has been in months of lockdown. He is 31. He did not care which vaccine he got. He just wanted one. As did his partner.

 

[Pushka]

From the position of zero covid we are stuck. I also lay blame on the Federation of Australia which after 60+ years of living in Australis I've realised that Australia is simply a group of cobbled together states with disparate objectives and that Australia - "we are one" - is simply fiction. It's been a huge awakening for me and it leaves me very sad.

 

[Pushka]

At the time I had my first vaccination of AZ I had no choice. For my second I did have a choice due to the ATAGI warning about the specific blood clotting illness I have but decided to stick with AZ and this totally summarises my thoughts and likely resonates with many here. Written by an Australian person under 50.

"For me, the choice to have AstraZeneca (AZ) gave me the only bit of control I’ve had since the pandemic began and international borders closed. Getting it has offered me a bit of hope during lockdown in Sydney.

While there is a small risk of developing a blood clotting condition, right now it’s a risk I – and many other under 40s – are willing to take. We want to get some semblance of normality back. We want international borders to open and we don’t want any more hard lockdowns.

With most of my family overseas, it’s been 496 days since I saw my parents and 810 days since I saw my brother. I have no idea when I’ll see them again and enough is enough."

 

[TheRealTMA]

At the time I had my first vaccination of AZ I had no choice. For my second I did have a choice due to the ATAGI warning about the specific blood clotting illness I have but decided to stick with AZ and this totally summarises my thoughts and likely resonates with many here.

"For me, the choice to have AstraZeneca (AZ) gave me the only bit of control I’ve had since the pandemic began and international borders closed. Getting it has offered me a bit of hope during lockdown in Sydney.

While there is a small risk of developing a blood clotting condition, right now it’s a risk I – and many other under 40s – are willing to take. We want to get some semblance of normality back. We want international borders to open and we don’t want any more hard lockdowns.

With most of my family overseas, it’s been 496 days since I saw my parents and 810 days since I saw my brother. I have no idea when I’ll see them again and enough is enough."

AZ vaccine is a good vaccine. Do not be concerned with the hype, particularly if you are over 60.

 

[burmans]

Did they? Who criticised the fact that we could produce a million doses of AZ a week and that UK was rolling it out.

Ah yeah but no. Plenty of people criticised the fact we didn’t hedge our bets by ordering multiple vaccines last year. But if you only want to get your news from one source and not do your own research that’s your decision.

Not my job to do your research for you or spend time trawling through old news reports. Don’t want to be rude but that’s just lazy.

 

[drron]

We ordered 4 different vaccines.
1 mRNA.
1 live virus.AZ
1 protein based sub unit vaccine.UQ.
1 Nanoparticle protein delivery.Novavax.

Quite frankly ordering 4 vaccines which use different technologies is hedging your bets.
No one last year argued we should have ordered more different types of vaccine.
The selective use of the retrospectroscope has been overdone this year.

 

[suze2000]

I still don't understand why the work on the UQ vaccine was abandoned. I don't see transitory positive HIV results as an issue. An HIV viral load test would quickly have sorted out which people really had HIV.