Royal Brunei Airlines and LGBTI travellers

[JohnK]

This argument only holds to a certain point. While it may hold true for democratic countries, it probably doesn't for totalitarian regimes. And which countries are we usually critical of?

In which circumstances do you think it would ok for your daughter to be denied education, be married at 12, be raped, be prevented from holding a job, be denied every opportunity that a male might have? I think there's a line where we can actually say there's a 'right and wrong'.

But who is defining the line? By the way I'm not saying they're right. They have a different belief to us.

There are countries that execute drug dealers. Should we force them to change their laws?

There are countries that execute mass murderers. Should we force them to change their laws?

There are countries that force citizens to idolise dictators, oppressors, monarchs etc and yes @dajop they do kill you for not feeling the same. I don't agree with it but you can't force them to change their views. North Korea is one right? Myanmar is another right?

There are countries that have strong religious beliefs? Should we try to change their beliefs?

I mentioned Africa and Central/South America earlier that have serious issues where basic human rights are ignored where warlords and drug lords rule with fear. Entire communities are wiped out and we are powerless to stop them. The same thing you mention about 12 year old girls happens there as well.

We live in a cruel world.

 

[JohnK]

Oh, we are talking about countries alright! And we can very well critize their inhumane beliefs (and worse, laws and actions).

In essence, you would be arguing that the Western allies had no right to be critical of naz_ Germany (and how they behaved and what they believed in)? Is that really what you are arguing? I’m sure most naz_s thought they were VERY right.

I think someone here badly needs a history and ethics refresher...

I don't need a history lesson thank you. A certain country committed genocide against my ancestors just on 100 years ago and the world looked on. In fact Great Britain and France armed them and helped them when Greece fought back and made huge inroads in reclaiming our rightful lands again.

So, at which point did I say I agreed with the ideology of naz_ Germany? Or Imperialist Japan for that matter?

They were both trying to conquer the world and slaughtered tens of millions. Brunei is introducing Sharia law. There's a huge difference there right?

 

[Berlin]

I don't need a history lesson thank you.

You’re welcome! You obviously do. A big one it seems.

 

[drron]

Oh, we are talking about countries alright! And we can very well critize their inhumane beliefs (and worse, laws and actions).

In essence, you would be arguing that the Western allies had no right to be critical of naz_ Germany (and how they behaved and what they believed in)? Is that really what you are arguing? I’m sure most naz_s thought they were VERY right.

I think someone here badly needs a history and ethics refresher...

Although many in the Western allies were critical of naz_ Germany nothing of real purpose was done until Germany attacked Poland.
They stood by when Hitler took over Austria and even agreed to him taking over part of Czechoslovakia,The part ceded had the majority of the countries resources so the whole country was soon under Hitler's control.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But who is defining the line? By the way I'm not saying they're right. They have a different belief to us.

There are countries that execute drug dealers. Should we force them to change their laws?

There are countries that execute mass murderers. Should we force them to change their laws?

There are countries that force citizens to idolise dictators, oppressors, monarchs etc and yes @dajop they do kill you for not feeling the same. I don't agree with it but you can't force them to change their views. North Korea is one right? Myanmar is another right?

There are countries that have strong religious beliefs? Should we try to change their beliefs?

That's the thing. One person in North Korea dictates what everyone thinks. There's mass poverty. Mass starvation.

History has a long record of dictators. We can draw the line. We drew it with Hitler. We drew it with other regimes. There is actually a correct answer.

There are amibuities around the edges, but that's not necessarily an excuse to do nothing at all.

 

[Quickstatus]

That's the thing. One person in North Korea dictates what everyone thinks. There's mass poverty. Mass starvation.

History has a long record of dictators. We can draw the line. We drew it with Hitler. We drew it with other regimes. There is actually a correct answer.

There are amibuities around the edges, but that's not necessarily an excuse to do nothing at all.

And in many places drawing the line invites the ......phobia label. And then where should the line be drawn?. WW2 was Poland. Belgium didn’t draw the line. Britain didn’t draw the line. France drew the line at head coverings. Where should the line be drawn?

 

[amaroo]

When will the line be drawn on China's tarmacing of the Sth China Sea... and beyond. Read and interesting article on the weekend about their activities in Antartica.

 

[dajop]

When will the line be drawn on China's tarmacing of the Sth China Sea... and beyond.

Funny you mention that, I was going to say this whole fuss around Brunei is a short term blip. Ultimately, over the long term (next 20-50 years) it will be China that decides how Brunei rules over its citizens. I am not really sure if I'm joking or not.

 

[Quickstatus]

Syrian government barrel and chemical bombing civilians. One POTUS drew a pretend line.

Drawing the line these days invites rabid criticism.

Better to stay quiet...

Strange Clooney doesn’t criticise Nespresso for opening stores in Saudi Arabia.

 

[JohnK]

That's the thing. One person in North Korea dictates what everyone thinks. There's mass poverty. Mass starvation.

History has a long record of dictators. We can draw the line. We drew it with Hitler. We drew it with other regimes. There is actually a correct answer.

There are amibuities around the edges, but that's not necessarily an excuse to do nothing at all.

But we don't always draw the line and follow up to completion. We tried to fix the issues in Africa and gave up. We tried to fix the issues in Central America and gave up. We tried to fix the issues in Middle East and still trying. We tried fixing the issues in SE Asia and there are still issues there.

The are genocides still occurring today. Kurds, Uyghurs, Bambuti, Darfur and the list goes on.

Then there's the Chinese advance in the South China Sea.

The line is very long and we'll never get to the end.

 

[dajop]

But we don't always draw the line and follow up to completion.

To be cynical, we draw the line only when the act of drawing the line will not have a huge impact on us. Whilst we need what Country A provides us, we will turn always turn a blind eye to how Country A is treating its citizens.

Take VA's announcement - it is a bit ironic, given that they are partially owned by the government of Abu Dhabi who does persecute the LGBTI community. And then Chinese ownership, where to start with that (and their treatment of Uyghurs). And of course Singapore who mainly persecutes opponents of Singapore Inc, but not to the extent that Abu Dhabi or China do.

 

[andye]

That's the thing. One person in North Korea dictates what everyone thinks. There's mass poverty. Mass starvation.

History has a long record of dictators. We can draw the line. We drew it with Hitler. We drew it with other regimes. There is actually a correct answer.

There are amibuities around the edges, but that's not necessarily an excuse to do nothing at all.

The line was drawn with Hitler when he invaded other countries. Who knows how the rest of the world would have reacted if he had killed German Jews/gypsies/homosexuals etc and stayed within his borders. One would like to think they would have reacted but I'm not so sure

 

[Quickstatus]

One would like to think they would have reacted but I'm not so sure

Anyone draw the line with Stalin and Mao’s circa 70million?. If it were 100 million would the line have been drawn?.

And current rise of antisemitism - I don’t see any lines drawn.

We only draw the line when it’s easy - like VA banning staff travel on BI but they are in bed with China and the Middle East - both not known for robust human rights.

Hypocrites!.

 

[ozfflyer]

no

airline can even go close to break even at $5/hour. 5 years ago, did an analysis of SYD/LAX/SYD & not inlcuding taxes, using a 747-400 with average 3 class seating, many airlines would find it hard to break even at $500 each way + taxes, or something like $1200 return in economy.

TYPO ABOVE

should have read

airline CAN'T even go close to break even at $5/hour FOR AN ECONOMY SEAT

 

[ozfflyer]

We had the list of estimated costs to fly a plane published here on AFF not so long ago. The figures were quite amazing (really low): The Cost of Operating a Commercial Flight

An A380 SYD-DFW has an average seat cost of $368 to operate. Some people are paying $7000 (one way in F), others $4000 (one way in J). That means the Y seats can be pretty low. (If 7/14 and 30/60 J class pax were on paid fares, the entire economy cabin, even at $1 per seat, would represent profit)

very few pay $7 or $4k.

Your maths are completely wrong.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

very few pay $7 or $4k.

Agree. I calculated no more than half of the premium cabins paying those fares. The rest being either heavily discounted 'sale' fares, award seats, or upgrades having already paid the fare in the original cabin (be it premium economy or business etc).

What calculations are you using?

 

[henleybeach]

Now I feel bad for flying Saudi airlines last year ...

 

[Pushka]

Now I feel bad for flying Saudi airlines last year ...

If you want to delve into it then many countries don’t have a great Human Rights charter. And people seem to ignore Singapore conveniently and China.

 

[henleybeach]

If you want to delve into it then many countries don’t have a great Human Rights charter. And people seem to ignore Singapore conveniently and China.

Yer I guess , like Qatar , UAE, Malaysia and not too long ago Cambodia , Africa.
There wouldn’t be too many places left to travel.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

If you want to delve into it then many countries don’t have a great Human Rights charter. And people seem to ignore Singapore conveniently and China.

As a country we can start by looking at Australia And next level down, our religious and charitable institutions.