Hostages Taken in Martin Place

[stoneman]

It just gets worse...

 

[medhead]

I doubt they were waiting for him to make the first move. It just seems that once he start shooting the preferred option was gone. If it was me I would've planned to go in just after midnight (12:36 say) or around 3 am (based on my memories of getting up for sentry duty at that hour). Any such plan was taken away from the police once actions started happening.

I'll say no more.

For better or for worse, following the London Tube bombings I became a trained negotiator (perhaps in hindsight a poor thing on the domestic front as every disagreement with my girlfriend she thinks I am analysing her and using 'mind games' to get my way ).

Waiting is often the low risk approach but for terrorists the prize is to remain in the spotlight of the media for as long as possible as a scare tactic. Waiting is certainly low risk for those not actually held hostage and creates a calm sense for the terrorist prior to springing a surprise hostage rescue. By letting the other party take the first action is give you justification to move in and come out clean.

But, as I have said, you can't reason with someone who thinks the outcome is martyrdom, terrorists only have a win win situation and the police have a win or loose outcome.

It's always easy to back the lowest risk practise of waiting but what were they waiting for; him to fall asleep or make the first move which justifies what ever action comes next, it takes courage to be the one making the decision to move first.

Without being there in command it's only my opinion.

Matt

 

[burmans]

It just seems that once he start shooting the preferred option was gone. If it was me I would've planned to go in just after midnight (12:36 say) or around 3 am (based on my memories of getting up for sentry duty at that hour).

The 3 am option may have been planned of course. From the accounts one of the reasons for action when it happened, was that he was starting to fall asleep, some taking advantage of this and either them leaving or the cafe manager seeking to attack/restrain him may have been what precipitated the shooting. So the waiting until he was tired/asleep may have been on the cards but unfortunately events overran it.

Personally I still think the police did a good job and its always easy to sit on the sidelines and second guess other options.

 

[QF WP]

Turning the lights off in the cafe would have precipitated the gunman getting tired as the melatonin increased in his body. In hindsight, allowing him to fall deeply asleep, opening the door and allowing all the hostages to escape and then the police arresting him (or shooting him) would have been the likely scenario they were hoping to achieve.

Alas, sometimes a heroic act sometimes doesn't pay off. The police moving in when they did, after the tip off from the sniper in the Ch7 window, probably saved lives. As did the manager who engineered confrontation with the gunman sufficient to allow hostages to escape a number of times.

 

[medhead]

The 3 am option may have been planned of course. From the accounts one of the reasons for action when it happened, was that he was starting to fall asleep, some taking advantage of this and either them leaving or the cafe manager seeking to attack/restrain him may have been what precipitated the shooting. So the waiting until he was tired/asleep may have been on the cards but unfortunately events overran it.

Personally I still think the police did a good job and its always easy to sit on the sidelines and second guess other options.

I agree about the police.

I won't comment about heroic acts, as it has happened now.

 

[UP4014]

I doubt they were waiting for him to make the first move. It just seems that once he start shooting the preferred option was gone. If it was me I would've planned to go in just after midnight (12:36 say) or around 3 am (based on my memories of getting up for sentry duty at that hour). Any such plan was taken away from the police once actions started happening.

I'll say no more.

THe police would have been working on options, getting a camera in somewhere, getting the floor plan to give them strategies and options. But, sometimes the plan is to wait which may have been the preferred option.

The 3am or 3pm plan is good, both times people are not at their most alert.

We need to wait and see what the plan A, B, and C was and what was the preferred option.

The police have a bad job in my opinion, they see everyones worst day and don't get paid enough.

Good luck to those who stick with the force, I have a cousin who is a detective with some high profile cases in the past and one in the paper just last week. I don't think I would be happy doing his job for his pay.

 

[QF WP]

Damn it's 3pm now - as I'm not at my best (like everyone), time for a chocolate hit

 

[Himeno]

Once it became clear they weren't likely to talk him down, why couldn't they just snipe him through the window. There were a number of clear shots.

 

[nlagalle]

Once it became clear they weren't likely to talk him down, why couldn't they just snipe him through the window. There were a number of clear shots.

What makes you think they can shoot accurately through glass???

 

[Pushka]

None of us have any idea who was standing behind him.

Oh Carp. Tori was shot at close range but not as a result of the struggle.

 

[UP4014]

What makes you think they can shoot accurately through glass???

3 sharp shooters one of whom is back up.

 

[medhead]

Once it became clear they weren't likely to talk him down, why couldn't they just snipe him through the window. There were a number of clear shots.

Covered up thread. This is not hollywood. There is no way of knowing what the bullet will do once it hits the glass. That's even assuming they were in place.

 

[medhead]

Great we're going to have new gun laws that make it illegal to illegally have firearms. Brilliant!

 

[Hvr]

A very interesting interview with John Silvester (aka Sly of the underworld) on 3AW.

At about the the 3' 40" mark, he talks about a possible new strategy to be implemented once it is determined why you're holding hostages. Basically if it is determined that you cannot be talked out because of your religious zealotry etc and will harm hostages then the kill shot will be taken.

If it is a siege because of family dispute etc and the police consider that you can be talked out then a different strategy will be used.

Well worth listening to this interview by someone who has the contacts and gets top level information.

 

[nlagalle]

3 sharp shooters one of whom is back up.

You're working on the assumption that the glass would shatter enough for a second one to make a clean shot. Sadly it doesn't really work outside Hollywood

 

[NFF]

Don't give in to hatred even when it is around you.

 

[kpc]

Just talking to my sister in law again...she caught up with her friend yesterday...she saw the fu*kwit shoot both hostages; he did not fall asleep as the media are reporting but was getiing very agitated at 2am; won't go into more detail here as there is an enquiry but this fu*kwit was very cruel in his words and actions to the hostages

 

[Pushka]

I wonder why he targetted those two people particularly?

In some ways it's unfortunate he died. He needed to be charged with murder. But then he probably would have received free legal aid. And maybe there would have been other fallout as well during the trial.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

2GB's Ray Hadley was talking to Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione who revealed his wife a daughter were in the Lindt Cafe one hour before the siege.

No Cookies | dailytelegraph.com.au

From what I have seen from the ch7 video and some accounts in the paper.

At 2am appears the manager again grabs the gunman and another bunch of people sprint for it (he also reportedly did the same thing at the earlier escape and then got beaten up). He then seemingly is shot and the sniper in the 7 premises reports "Window 2. Hostage down". Based on preagreed scenarios police immediately enter (I suspect on the basis that one hostage is down things will escalate in any event).

Somewhere in the next 30-odd seconds a number of other hostages and a policeman are shot (unclear whether by the gunman or crossfire), and one further hostage dies of a heart attack enroute to hospital.

All very sad, and one very troubled individual

I thought that the other hostage dying of a heart attack was disputed and it was in fact a gunshot wound. One of the Ch7 cameramen stayed in the studios so he could continue filming close ups of the cafe thereby assisting police.

 

[medhead]

They seemed to be pretty clearly pumping on the chest of one of the people being wheeled out. The doctors will correct me. But isn't heart failure a direct result of low blood volume? Say from excessive bleeding.